Murnaghan 12.05.13 Interview with Sir Menzies Campbell, former Lib Dem leader
ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS
DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the Liberal Democrats have accused the Conservatives of endless navel gazing over Europe. David Cameron faces a potentially embarrassing vote in the House of Commons this week as up to 100 of his own MPs could vote against the Queen’s Speech. Well I am joined now from Edinburgh by the former Lib Dem leader, Sir Menzies Campbell, a very good morning to you Sir Menzies and obviously I want to start with that issue and ask you how much stress do you believe it is causing within the coalition because there are explicit signals being sent out from the Conservative leadership that if it weren’t for the Liberal Democrats it would have been in the Queen’s Speech?
SIR MENZIES CAMPBELL: Well remember the reason why it is not in the Queen’s Speech is because the coalition agreement is very clear on this topic. The coalition agreement provides that there will only be a referendum in the event of any constitutional change, that is to say more powers going from Westminster to Brussels and of course why was that put in? It was put in to try and avoid the kind of navel gazing, as you describe it, which in my view gets right and completely and totally in the way of concentration on the single most important issue to the people of this country, namely the restoration of stability in the economy.
DM: Do you not feel that this says what it says about the Liberal Democrats when it comes to Europe is that you are just so way out of line with the public mood, that most people at least want some discussion about the relationship with Europe and an awful lot want to have a say in terms of a referendum about it?
MC: Well I’m very happy, you and I are having a discussion about Europe, I’m very happy to have a discussion with anyone about Europe, I’m very happy to talk about the fact that it’s estimated some three million jobs in the United Kingdom depend upon our European Union membership, the volume of exports that we send and that because of the EU we have access to a single market of more than 500 million people, more I think than $16 trillion combined GDP and 27 countries. I’m very happy to argue for the advantages of the European Union but I am equally happy to say that reform is required and of course the way in which you achieve reform in Europe is not by standing outside and beating on the door, you achieve reform by getting in and forming alliances. There are plenty of countries like Finland and Holland and others that are very supportive of Britain’s view that reform is required.
DM: What does it say about the future, the future of coalition? Much discussion about 2015 and how the cards may fall, would this then be the deal breaker? The Conservatives are going to have to put it, we all know, the pledge for a referendum in their manifesto, Labour were not being particularly clear about it but there is no way you could rule it out of a coalition agreement if you go back into bed with the Conservatives.
MC: Well the manifestos for the parties have not yet been written, although as you point out, in a couple of years that is exactly what we will be discussing no doubt at this time of year but my own personal view is that it is quite legitimate to adopt a position in which you say if there is going to be a substantial alteration in the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union, then that is something that we should put to the British people. That I think is a perfectly rational position to adopt but of course one of the difficulties, and to some extent I agree surprisingly perhaps with Nigel Lawson’s remarks this week, this whole question of renegotiation has had some history in this country. People forget it is what Harold Wilson claimed he was able to do before the 1975 referendum and the truth of the matter was he went round, he and Jim Callaghan went round the capitals of Europe and came back with very little to show for what they’d done so to that extent I’m not convinced that unilateral renegotiation is likely to be very productive but I think there is scope for reform and reform in which we build alliances within the European Union for that purpose.
DM: What about that, you touched on it and we heard it from Nick Clegg, what about that thing you’ve been saying about three million jobs dependent upon the European Union, you’ve plucked that out of the air haven’t you?
MC: No, it is a generally accepted figure but …
DM: What does that mean?
MC: It’s a figure which people recognise, it’s a figure which is supported by analysis. The point I’m making, or that I’d like to make is this, that people who say right, we should come out and we’ll be just as well off economically, really have an obligation to tell us what would the transition be like, what would the impact be upon inward investment for example during a period when we are negotiating our withdrawal, just exactly what are the immediate economic implications of withdrawal from the European Union? And that so far has not formed any part of the case being made by those who want us to come out.
DM: I’ve got to ask you the Scots dimension about this, aren’t people going to say to the Liberal Democrats come 2015 and you in particular as a proud Scot, well you offered the Scottish people, they had a referendum, you allowed them to have a referendum on whether they wanted to be in the United Kingdom or not but you Lib Dems, you don’t think the British people should have such a referendum about the membership of the European Union.
MC: Well the reason the Scots were offered, are having a referendum is because a party in favour of independence obtained a majority in the Scottish parliament and what they seek is constitutional change and if it’s constitutional change they seek that’s why there should be a referendum. It’s entirely consistent with our view that if there is going to be constitutional change in the relationship between the United Kingdom and the EU then that should be the subject of referendum but let me tell you, since you raised the question of that, the slogan for those of us who are opposed to independence is ‘Better Together’. That is a slogan which we can easily adapt to the European Union, we are better together.
DM: Okay and lastly on this issue of leadership, as a former leader yourself of a party, do you feel Mr Cameron is losing control of elements of his party over this and is that a worry for the coalition government?
MC: I think it’s a worry for Mr Cameron and indeed for the Conservative party and as a consequence for the coalition government. A little earlier this year I wrote a piece in a newspaper following the difficulties which the Prime Minister had on a vote over the EU budget and I said that the eurosceptics in his party hadn’t just smelled blood, they’d tasted blood and there is no doubt that they are encouraged by what has happened in the course of the last six months. They are also provoked, if you like, by the vote obtained by UKIP but it is very, very important to remember this, if you like sporting analogy, teams that find themselves having to chase the game are very rarely successful. We have a clear policy on the European Union, it is a coalition government policy, it’s a policy which is designed to allow us to concentrate on stability in the economy and anything which gets in the way of that in my view – and I suspect in the view of most members of the British public – is something to be avoided at all costs. The Conservatives may have a glass jaw on Europe but we should not allow that to stand in the way of the purpose for which this coalition was formed.
DM: Sir Menzies Campbell, thank you very much.
