Murnaghan Interview with Hilary Benn, MP, Shadow Foreign Secretary, 22.02.16

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:  Now then, the leader of the Labour party, Jeremy Corbyn, has dismissed the Prime Minister’s European deal as ‘tinkering and irrelevant’ but although he says the deal is the wrong one, Labour will campaign of course to stay in the European Union.  Well I’m joined now by Hilary Benn, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, a very good morning to you Mr Benn.  So you think this was tinkering and irrelevant as well then, what the Prime Minister was up to in Brussels?  

HILARY BENN:  Look, everybody knows what the Prime Minister was doing was trying to manage the deep division there is in the Conservative party over Britain’s place in Europe.  He never wanted this referendum originally, he didn’t want the renegotiation and he’s ended up where we always knew he would, which is campaigning for Britain to stay in the EU because it’s the right thing to do for the British people because of the jobs, investment, security and influence it gives us.  

DM: But you just think on the issue itself he shouldn’t have asked for anything at all because it was going along pretty well anyway, is that what …?  

HILARY BENN: No, we are not saying that because we are in favour of reform and indeed some of the things that he has achieved are things that we put in our election manifesto.  For example we said that we should have a red card, we’ve now got that.  

DM: So it wasn’t irrelevant then?

HILARY BENN: It was irrelevant in this sense, Dermot, it didn’t change Labour’s view of whether the right thing to do is to stay in the European Union or to leave.  Now the Prime Minister pretended, well it all depends on this negotiation, but everyone knows he set out wanting to stay in, he had to go through this process, he’s ended up saying I want to stay in so it’s irrelevant in that sense.  But protecting the pound, because we’re not in the euro, the last Labour government right said we are not going to join the euro and other decisions that have been taken…

DM: Well you changed that view eventually.

HILARY BENN: No, not eventually, we took the right decision and boy was it the right decision because …

DM: Yes, eventually.

HILARY BENN: … it would have been a terrible mistake for Britain to have joined the euro.

DM: Well we don’t want to revisit that whole campaign but why isn’t Jeremy Corbyn four square behind all this?  We know he is lukewarm about Europe don’t we?

HILARY BENN:     No, he is four square behind Britain remaining in the European Union.  I mean look at the article he has written today because he’s clear, I’m clear, the Labour part is clear – what’s this about?  It’s about jobs.  Let’s take a really practical example, Dermot, every day we export nearly 2000 cars to the European Union and they go there without having to pay any tariff at all.  Now cars that come to Europe from Japan and America have to pay a 10% tariff, that is one of the reasons why so many companies have invested in the car industry in Britain, because we have tariff free access to the biggest single market in the world and what does that mean for British people?  It means well paid jobs in highly skilled manufacturing for people up and down the country who are producing these cars.  This is a very practical example of the benefits of being in the European Union and why we are better off within it.  

DM: But it’s just the leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition, you’ll remember last week, it seems ancient history though now, don’t you, that letter that you came out with, you were one of the signatories along with Lord Kinnock, Jack Straw, Margaret Beckett, Lord Blunkett but no Jeremy Corbyn, he didn’t sign that letter and these were – apart from yourself – these have been eurosceptic people in the past.  We know Jeremy Corbyn was one of them 40 years ago, 41 years ago in 1975, why didn’t he sign that letter?  Did you ask him?

HILARY BENN:     Because we were a group of former Ministers, all of us were former Ministers and one former Commissioner, that was what if you like self-identified the group.  

DM: So Jeremy Corbyn wanted to sign it but you wouldn’t let him?

HILARY BENN: No, this was an initiative that a group of former ministers who had campaigned in ’75 against remaining in what was then the Common Market, explaining why we had changed our mind.  The fact is there is no difference between Jeremy and I and Jack Straw ….

DM: But Jeremy Corbyn campaigned in 1975 against staying in the Common Market, surely you could have overlooked the nuance that perhaps he hasn’t had a ministerial role or shadow ministerial role, he is now leader of the Labour party. Did you ask him to sign that letter?


HILARY BENN:     He wasn’t asked to sign that letter because it was a letter put together by a group of former ministers and you are really having to, if I may say so Dermot, to scrape the bottom of the barrel here to try and find division that doesn’t exist within the Labour party because we are absolutely clear.  We went through a process, I’ve changed my mind compared with ’75, the fact is it’s good for the British people to be in Europe, a lot of jobs depend on it, it makes us more secure.  In the last decade or so about 5000 people who are criminal suspects have been removed from this country to face justice in other countries because we have the European Arrest Warrant.  One of the failed 21st of July 2005 bombers who fled to Italy was brought back to face justice and was convicted of that attempt to blow up Londoners for the second time in two weeks, why?  Because of the European Arrest Warrant and that is why we are going to be safer in the European Union as well as better off in it.  As Shadow Foreign Secretary I would say to you that actually being in Europe strengthens Britain’s voice in the world and our influence because if we are going to deal with the problems that you and I have discussed on a number of occasions that affect the world of which we are part …

DM: But you have got this issue haven’t you …

HILARY BENN: … it is going to be much easier if we do it if we work with our neighbours.   

DM: I mean there is, as you have identified, as you have accepted, there is a streak at least of euro-scepticism within your party.  If you look at this survey done quite recently that of the 142 seats that are most likely to vote to leave, 63% of them are held by Labour MPs.  I mean you have got an uphill struggle haven’t you, to convince the people that voted for Jeremy Corbyn?

HILARY BENN:     I don't think we have got an uphill struggle at all amongst Labour party members because the Labour party policy, the Labour party conference’s policy has for a very long time been, reaffirmed yet again last September, is that we want to remain in the European Union for all the reasons that I have …

DM:  So you wouldn’t accept that out there in the constituencies amongst grassroots Labour supporters, many of them have doubts about the European Union?  You don’t accept that?  

HILARY BENN: I accept that not everything about the European Union is perfect.  We want to see reform but the decision that we are going to take on the 23rd June is the most important one we will have faced, as you know, as a country for over 40 years and it is very simply this – are we going to be better off in?  I believe passionately and Labour’s view is that we will and you have got what, 213 Labour MPs who signed up to support it, the overwhelming majority of Labour MPs, the overwhelming majority of Labour party members but this is a referendum, you’ve got a vote, I’ve got a vote and we are going to have to persuade people that …

DM: I was going to ask you about the campaign.  Are Labour party members going to keep any Conservatives a long distance away from them because you are mentally scarred aren’t you, the lasting scars are there, from the campaign against Scottish independence?  When your party was being painted basically in Scotland as Red Tories, you don’t want to share any platforms do you with Conservatives?

HILARY BENN:     Well I said right at the beginning that I am not going to be sharing any platforms with any Conservatives during this referendum campaign, that’s why we’ve set up our Labour campaign headed by Alan Johnson.  As your previous question rightly identified, we want to talk to Labour supporters and persuade them that this is the right thing to do in the interests of the country and themselves, their families, their jobs, the incomes that depend on being part of this single market and the Tories have got a big problem because the Cabinet is split, the parliamentary Tory party is split and that’s why David Cameron went down this road, because he couldn’t handle his own party.  He put his party interest above the national interest and this referendum is going to happen …

DM: Well what about you putting national interest above the party interest?  You are quite satisfied aren’t you to see that fight within the Conservatives take place and you are just standing on the sidelines.  

HILARY BENN: Look, in the end I want Britain to remain in the European Union because that’s bigger than any party debate or fight because it is about the future of our country and the future of …

DM: But say it all comes down to a few days before the vote, the polls come out and they are neck and neck and you get a call from the Prime Minister’s office saying look Mr Benn, you have been one of the most enthusiastic on the Labour side and I think it would really help if we shared a united front to the nation, a cross party united front saying vote for us to stay in?  You wouldn’t do it?

HILARY BENN:     I will be saying that we should vote to stay in but I’m not proposing to share any platforms with the Prime Minister. Look, we work our separate sides of the street in the course of the campaign but I want everyone who supports remaining in the European …

DM: But in the national interest?  I am just seeing how strong that line, that line in the sand, you will not cross that in the national interest?

HILARY BENN: I am not going to share any platforms with Conservatives because we have got our own Labour campaign and the Conservatives have got their own campaign but in the end everybody who thinks it is in the national interest for Britain to remain in, should do everything they can in their own way to encourage people to take that decision when polling day comes.

DM: And just lastly, your thoughts on – it’s the other party of course but your thoughts on the Mayor of London dithering over his decision?

HILARY BENN: Well I’m surprised really because Boris Johnson in the past has written a lot about the importance of staying in the European Union and if he is actually thinking about putting his personal leadership ambitions above the national interest, I don't think it’s going to do him any good.

DM: Hilary Benn, very good to see you. The Shadow Foreign Secretary there.