Murnaghan Interview with Owen Smith MP, Labour leadership candidate, 18.09.16

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: It’s the final week of this year’s Labour leadership contest and Jeremy Corbyn looks almost certain to win if you believe the polls and if he does he is planning to give more power to the party’s members who voted him in, allowing them to decide policy and elect members to the Shadow Cabinet.  Well his challenger, Owen Smith, joins me now and a very good morning to you Mr Smith.  Well let’s talk about the polling, it’s looking pretty grim for you it must be said.

OWEN SMITH: Well there’s only been one poll so far, Dermot.  People keep talking about the polls, there was one poll done by Populus, YouGov rather, and the only vote there’s been so far was in the GMB’s membership and there I won, 26,000 to 17,000 so I don't know what the result is going to be but I am just going to keep on going talking about the issues till the end.

DM: But I have heard some of your supporters talking about the unexpected Brexit result after the polls, the general election before that but those polls as it turned out were only two or three percentage points out, that poll you are talking about has got Jeremy Corbyn on 62%, it would have to be 13, 14 points out, that’s pretty unlikely isn’t it?

OWEN SMITH: Look, Jeremy has always been the favourite in this, Dermot, we know that.  He won with 60% last time, I was obviously always the underdog in this fight but I hope I’ve spoken with passion about what I believe.  I said very clearly that I think the party isn’t going to win an election with Jeremy as leader, I said very clearly I don't think we’ve been a very strong opposition with him, I don't think we’ve been united and I do think we need to change the leader of the Labour party so that we can get back to being something the country can look at and see as a credible alternative to the Tories.

DM: But is a part of you thinking, do you wake up in the middle of the night and think this could really have backfired?   He was of course destabilised by all those resignations, by the lack of a vote of confidence in him by the Parliamentary Labour Party and you have given him a chance here haven’t you, if he wins this with an even bigger majority, you have given Mr Corbyn a chance – those of you who want to see him out – of strengthening his grip on Labour.

OWEN SMITH: Potentially, yes.  I mean I didn’t start this fight as it were, I was somebody who came to challenge once a challenge had already been levelled at Jeremy but I still think that we’ve had a really important debate in Labour whatever the outcome of this.  We have been forced, if you like, to look at ourselves and think much harder than we were doing about whether we have been effective in fighting the Tories, whether we have looked like an alternative to them, whether we’re winning back some of the trust and respect that we lost over a long period from the public in this country and I think the truth is that we have lost a lot of that respect, that we’re not looking credible, that we needed to have this debate and we will need to continue to have this debate whoever wins on Saturday.

DM: But you say potentially Mr Corbyn could strengthen his grip and his supporters on the party, so let’s examine some of those processes that we hear that are particularly giving the electorate control of electing the Shadow Cabinet, that used to be the prerogative of MPs, well who are they going to pick?  And also this idea of selecting and vetoing party policy.  

OWEN SMITH: Yes, I have read the report in …

DM: Does that worry you?

OWEN SMITH: It does rather.  I read the report in The Observer this morning and it is presented as apparently being a sort of conciliatory gesture by Jeremy.  It isn’t a conciliatory gesture, it’s not simply an attempt to extend democracy in the Labour party, it is an attempt to deepen divisions between new members and MPs, it’s an attempt to further cement his position and use the membership as a means of driving a wedge between the MPs and his leadership.  If he was serious about trying to unify the party then he would be taking seriously the notion of going back to the traditional method we’ve had of guaranteeing that there was some balance in the Shadow Cabinet, that everybody felt in the party that they had some representation which was election through the PLP.  I am in favour of us having more democracy in the Labour party but I don’t think Jeremy and his team can get away with saying this is all about an olive branch when really and truly it is about deepening the divisions that he has created in the party.

DM: Well you’ve talked a lot, you’ve talked just now about making the party electable.  There is no point having the best policies in the world if you don’t get a  chance to implement them.

OWEN SMITH: Precisely.

DM: Do you not think then, back to what we were discussing earlier, that you’ve given Jeremy Corbyn and his supporters in your analysis a chance to take the party even further away from being electable?

OWEN SMITH: Well I gave a big speech at the beginning of this week, Dermot, in which I talked about my concerns that there were people within the Labour party who are seeking to take it over and to take it away from the voters.

DM: Coalesced around Momentum.

OWEN SMITH: Yes and we’ve seen, I think there is a big Dispatches programme on television on Channel 4 tomorrow that simply reiterates the point I was making that in parts of the country, in most parts of the country, Momentum are seeking in their words to take over the party and to deselect people, talking about handing out redundancy notices to party staff members.  The contrast is they are talking about spending member’s money on redundancy payments to staff members, I am talking about hiring new staff members, using that money in order to put organisers into the key seats we need to win at the next general election.  I pointed out at the last hustings, Jeremy doesn’t even know how many seats we need to win to form a government.  Now I think that’s an illustration of the fact that he is not terribly serious about doing that and he is much more happy winning arguments within the Labour party than he is about winning the country.

DM: There are those within your party before Mr Corbyn gets re-elected, already talking about a split or some kind of de facto split with the Parliamentary party, elements of that running itself in the House of Commons. If there is would you be joining those forces or would you be considering joining Mr Corbyn’s front bench?

OWEN SMITH: No, I’ve said clearly already I don't think I could serve on the front bench under Jeremy’s leadership because I don't think I could do that with integrity having spent the summer saying I don't think Jeremy is up to the job and I don't think Jeremy is going to lead us to victory, I think that would be wrong for me then to serve alongside Jeremy but I won’t do what Jeremy did, Jeremy voted against the Labour government and the Labour party 450 odd times, 500 times I think.  I’m not going to do that, I’m going to carry on voting with it.

DM: But what about this plan, as I say, these people talking about a de facto split, some even talking about a formal split?

OWEN SMITH: I think any talk of splits is disaster for Labour.  I think we’ve got to fight to win the party respect back in the country, I think that mean fighting within the Labour party, making our comments in a comradely fashion, not trying to deepen these divisions but being honest about where we sit right now.  Jeremy used to talk about wanting about a bit more honest straight talking politics and I agree with him about that but it is not honest to say we’re flying high when we’re at our lowest ebb.

DM: You talk about honest, given the situation we’ve had over the last few weeks, if Mr Corbyn wins and you are sitting there on the back benches loyally supporting him, we’ll know you’re living a lie, you don’t believe it.

OWEN SMITH: Well I’ll be supporting Labour because I fundamentally believe in loyalty in Labour and whilst I have challenged Jeremy, it has not been because I don’t want to take over the Labour party, it’s because I want to make sure that the Labour party, the party I love and have been in for a long, long time is electable and is speaking to the concerns of the country.  That’s what I’ve tried to do during this contest, I’ve spoken about the need for big investment but I’ve said how we pay for it.  I’ve said that we need to be challenging the Tories on what they are doing to the NHS and I’m worried to read in the newspaper this morning that John McDonnell hasn’t asked a single question in his brief, a written question, since he took over the job. That’s not proper opposition, we’re meant to be Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, that means we’ve got to oppose and expose the government when they are getting things wrong and we’re not being good at even that fundamental task let alone the bigger task of looking like a credible alternative.

DM: But lastly just on the policy similarities it is said between you and Mr Corbyn, I saw someone commenting then effectively what Mr Smith is saying is I have got more charisma and am better looking than Jeremy Corbyn because that’s the way you think you are going to win, it’s the same policy portfolio so what’s the difference?

OWEN SMITH: I have never said I am better looking than Jeremy, he is a very good looking man, but what I have done is spelled out how I’d pay for these things.  So yes, I am saying that we should invest but I’m not doing what John McDonnell says and says I’m going to invest 500 billion without saying who is going to pay for it, I say let’s invest 200 billion but let’s show the country how we’d do it through issuing long-dated government debt.  I’ve said clearly let’s make sure we can spend 60 billion over the parliament on the NHS, that’s deemed to be left wing to want to invest in our public services but the difference between me and John is that I’ve said precisely which taxes on the very wealthiest in this country, on the 1%, I’d raise and on corporations, in order to pay for that.  I’ve said we should retain our Trident nuclear missile system, I’ve said we should spend 2% on defence – big differences, Dermot, between me and them and I think I have spelled those out to you.

DM: Well if you win then we will be having those precise discussions again.

OWEN SMITH: I am looking forward to it, I can’t wait.  Thanks a lot.

DM: Mr Smith, very good to see you.  The Labour leadership contender, Owen Smith.