Sky News 1700 23.01.14 Interview with Dieudonne M'bala M'bala about the 'quenelle' and Nicholas Anelka
ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS
JEREMY THOMSON: We start with an exclusive interview with the man who sparked a world-wide debate about a gesture described by the French government as anti-Semitic. Dieudonné M’bala M’bala has maintained his silence is the four weeks since the footballer, Nicholas Anelka, brought his controversial ‘quenelle’ gesture to world-wide attention. Dieudonné has been banned from performing in large parts of his native France, apart from in his own club in Paris. Sky’s Paul Harrison found him near Paris a bit earlier today.
PAUL HARRISON: He’s the man everybody wants to put questions to. His words, and of course his now controversial ‘quenelle’ gesture, are being debated around the world. He is a defiant man who insists he is no racist nor anti-Semite.
DIEUDONNE: There’s no hint of racism, racism is a bad thing.
PAUL HARRISON: But for all the headlines and anger, stirred up particularly within the Jewish community, Dieudonné M’bala M’bala is a very hard man to track down. No sign of him at his home west of Paris and at his nearby office …
VOICE: I’ve told you many times he’s not here, he’s not doing interviews. I can’t add any more.
PAUL HARRISON: But the question is …
VOICE: Goodbye, sir.
PAUL HARRISON: Is he here? I’m told the Cameroon born comedian is not talking to the media. But with the long drive into Paris this evening for his latest performance, a little petrol is needed. A chance then to pose a few of those burning questions.
DIEUDONNE: Can you stop please? It is a little aggressive.
PAUL HARRISON: We can step back.
DIEUDONNE: Stop filming and we perhaps we can talk.
PAUL HARRISON: Mr Dieudonné kept his word and, minus his hood, agreed to talk to us back at his offices on board his theatre bus where he began his career. I began by asking whether the ‘quenelle’ was or was not a racist, anti-Semitic or an inverse Nazi salute?
DIEUDONNE: No, obviously not. The quenelle was at the start an insult, a little like this, I’m not sure how you do it in England. In France it’s a gesture against the system.
PAUL HARRISON: The salute, whatever its interpretation, is being copied around the world. West Brom’s Nicholas Anelka has now been charged by the FA for celebrating using the gesture. Dieudonné’s message to the FA? Let him continue playing.
DIEUDONNE: Nicholas Anelka and I, we are French of African origin. And the salute is a gesture of emancipation. Nicholas Anelka has all my support. We see him like a brother in our humanity. He is someone who shows courage and is someone for whom we have lots of respect and admiration. We are all behind him in solidarity and we are above all proud of him because of his noble position. To us he is a prince.
PAUL HARRISON: Dieudonné says he has no regrets and while the French government has for now at least shut down his controversial show The Wall, he will continue to use the salute. The quenelle and all it means is a complex issue for people to get their heads around, says Dieudonné, but whilst he continues to use it and not excuse it, it will continue to anger and divide.
JEREMY THOMPSON: Let’s bring in Paul who is live in Paris for us tonight. And Dieudonné remains remarkably unapologetic over the whole thing by the sounds of it.
PAUL HARRISON: He really does and quiet defiant as well. He won’t apologise for it because he doesn’t feel that this is a gesture that is any way racist or anti-Semitic, neither is it an inverse Nazi salute. It is for what he believes a salute that is linked to emancipation, to slavery, those who use it use it because they are against the system and so whilst he says on one hand, Jeremy, he is not going to apologise for it, he can’t equally stop those from using it the wrong way, he believes, right around the world. We’ve seen those pictures of people doing the quenelle salute at places like Auschwitz and that has really offended the Jewish community. Whether this goes far enough to quell those who are very, very angry about this salute and the fact that it has really gathered a lot of steam, I don't know whether this is going to go far enough to quell that. At the very least Dieudonné says he is going to continue using that salute, he is performing here in Paris tonight at seven o’clock, so in about an hour’s time, and when he does so he won’t rule out using the quenelle salute again. So quite defiant and certainly he is gathering the headlines, and perhaps that is what this is all about.
JEREMY THOMPSON: Paul, there has been no legal action against him, in my understanding, so far but clearly his activities have been quite seriously curtailed within France.
PAUL HARRISON: Yes, that’s right. No action against him, in fact quite the opposite is true, that he is taking action against those organisations who insist that this salute is anti-Semitic so actually he’s the one who is bringing the action against other people. He will for the time being agree not to do this controversial show, The Wall or Le Mur, as it’s called, in France. He has adapted it, he is doing a different show altogether which looks back at his African heritage but within that, contains within that, he won’t rule out using that salute. So no action against him, I suspect the authorities are hoping that he won’t return to that controversial show but if he continues to use this salute, who knows what may happen?
JEREMY THOMPSON: Paul Harrison in Paris, thank you very much indeed. Let’s turn to another Paul, Paul Kelso our sports correspondent. Where does this leave Anelka, charges from the FA against him, what next?
PAUL KELSO: He’s got just under an hour to respond to that charge, he’s had three days to think about it, the FA are expecting some response this evening. There is a possibility, we are expecting him to deny the charges and contest them, there is a possibility he will be granted an extension to that to prepare his legal case. We’ll know within the hour and at that point the FA is left with the tricky, the thorny issue as we’ve seen there from Paul’s report, of picking their way through all those issues that have been thrown up by the deliberately ambiguous gesture and its meaning. We have to say that in the past Dieudonné certainly has been the subject of legal action, he has got six convictions for inciting racial hatred. The Interior Minister banned the show, he moved in the courts to get all the local authorities, departments in France, to ban the show that Dieudonné was planning on taking on tour. The French state is very unhappy about him but of course every time they close him down, his argument that he is anti-establishment and a victim of censorship gets stronger and that’s why this is such a thorny issue. He is a truly controversial character is the very purest sense but we’ll know where the Football Association is and whether Nicholas Anelka is looking at a five match ban minimum within the hour.
JEREMY THOMPSON: Thanks very much, Paul Kelso reporting there. We’ll have more of Paul Harrison’s exclusive interview with Dieudonné at half past five tonight.
NEWS 1730 JEREMY THOMPSON: Well more now on Paul Harrison’s exclusive interview with the French comedian, Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, the inventor of the gesture described by the French government as anti-Semitic. Paul began by asking him about that controversial salute.
DIEUDONNE: The ‘quenelle’ salute, it is simply a salute. At the beginning it was an arm of honour. It was a bit like this – I think you do this in England. In France it means simply a gesture that is against the system. And then after time it became a gesture of emancipation. Many Africans like me, descendants of slaves, it’s for self-liberation. That means liberation from a system, liberation from … And it’s because of that, that Nicholas Anelka did it. Many young people here especially, people of every religion, every ethnicity, every social background, they find it extraordinary because it’s Martinique in origin and it’s a gesture against submission to a system. It’s a gesture belonging to the descendants of slaves who say ‘Stop it. It’s done. I’m done.’
PAUL HARRISON: Can you understand sometimes in your sketches you’ve been accused by police of being anti-Jewish. Many times you’ve been in court and it’s because of that, that people think it’s something anti-Semitic.
DIEUDONNE: In fact I’ve been to court many times but the majority of the time I win these cases. I’ve been sentenced sometimes. People can think what they want. The truth is my name is Dieudonné M’bala M’bala. I am in origin African and French. I’ve never known a person, a German linked to the Nazi world. All of this is an invention by those who, by contrast, are slave owners’ descendants. And therefore I think that the group who want to ban the ‘quenelle’, we have to ask ‘Who are they?’ It’s not for those groups to tell us who is right and who is wrong. We are born on a planet to live together in harmony, each person has a different story. Nicholas Anelka and me, we are French of African origin. The gesture here is a gesture of emancipation. There’s nothing Nazi about it. By contrast, I think that many people who descend from slave owners, find it difficult to accept that certain people are liberated. Nicholas Anelka has all my support, that’s evident. I consider him a brother in humanity. He’s someone who is very courageous and for whom I have much respect and admiration. It is strange because [the Football Association] are independent. If they love football they should be more interested in what is happening at the match. When an athlete is technical like Anelka, one of the able ones, he scores goals and people applaud him. Nicholas Anelka is descended from slaves and if he wants to mark his connection to this history, he has a right to do so. We are very proud that he does that, all of us, because Nicholas Anelka is hope. So if those who are pro-slavery deny us, the slaves, our emancipation – it’s serious. Many who have been in the business of slavery, who did business out of slaves – you have it in England as well, the slaves of the colonies, in France also on a large scale and we are the children of that. And when we do this, that has a significance that goes back to these origins.
PAUL HARRISON: The problem is that you have encouraged people to take photos, there are photos for example of people at Auschwitz who do the ‘quenelle’.
DIEUDONNE: No, but there are also people at the seaside, in the air in parachutes, getting married. Each person does the gesture where they want. Me, I have no responsibility for the places where the gesture is made. Above all I am proud of him [Anelka] because he has a very noble stance, very. He’s a prince, for us. You – you have princes, queens in England but us, we prefer Nicholas Anelka. He’s our own prince, no?
JEREMY THOMPSON: Just to remind you that the footballer at the centre of this, Nicholas Anelka, a friend of Dieudonné’s, has until the top of this hour, about 21 minutes from now, six o’clock tonight if he is to respond to the FA charges of bringing the game into disrepute so we should know one way or another by the top of hour.
