Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with John McDonnell, Shadow Chancellor, 15.01.17

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: This week the big relaunch of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership has sent his party crashing back into the headlines so I’ve been to Hayes to speak to his right hand man, the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell and also his constituents.  One thing the majority of the people we spoke to did agree on was their local MP, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell, who has held the seat since 1987.

JOHN McDONNELL:  It’s a really nice community, I’ve been here about 40 years now and it’s a multicultural community and people rub along together pretty well.

SR: It is estimated that this constituency properly voted out, certainly the borough voted for Brexit very strongly.  Why do you think people voted to leave the EU here?

JOHN McDONNELL: Absolute insecurity.  Again this is one of those areas which felt had been left behind, individuals felt they had been left behind.  The whole borough, the London Borough of Hillingdon which is where we are located voted for leave so I think this constituency as well felt all that insecurity that they had, particularly around housing and jobs and it was a vote to say the existing system is not working for me.  Certainly they felt the relationship with the European Union wasn’t working for them as well.

SR: Do you think immigration came into it as well?

JOHN McDONNELL: A bit, yes, a bit because what happens is, if you are under pressure and your wages aren’t very high, you are struggling to maintain a secure job and public services are under pressure, you’re going to blame someone and sometimes it becomes the migrant that you blame instead of really understanding actually a lot of the problems that we’ve got in this area is lack of investment over a long period of time in housing, lack of investment in skills training to get the decent jobs that we want and also exploitative employers.  

SR: I’m quite interested to know about Labour’s policies as well, we may have an election before 2020, of course we don’t know for sure …
 
JOHN McDONNELL: It could come any time.

SR: It’s a possibility of course, what are you doing to win over Conservative voters?

JOHN McDONNELL: Trying to address their concerns.  I’ll give you an example this week, and I’ve been talking to people in the constituency as well, whether you are Labour, Conservative or whatever political party you support, you know what the problems are in terms of the NHS.  The one that’s hitting us hard in this area in particular is social care too, that lack of investment by the government in the NHS, the lack of investment in social care, goes across all classes and it goes across all political expectations.  

SR: It does go across all classes but at the same time it is solid Labour territory, it is the kind of thing that you are almost playing at home on the NHS aren’t you?  Is there anything that you are trying to move over into Conservative territory?

JOHN McDONNELL: You’re right but that’s the issue this week and as I say, that affects everybody and it is bring people together.  I’ve talked to Conservative voters and Conservative supporters and even Conservative MPs, you saw in the Commons this week, who are saying the government has got to act, Theresa May cannot be in denial about that, she’s got to act so an issue like that of course is a traditional area for us because we set up the NHS but this issue around job security is quite important as well.  As I say it is affecting, it isn’t just ordinary working class people, it is also affecting those who are slightly middle earners as well and particularly those ones who feel under pressure if they work in the public sector and the private sector – working long hours under a lot of pressure and yet you have had your pay frozen effectively for the last six or seven years.

SR: On the NHS there is a crisis clearly, we can see that.  What’s the solution?

JOHN McDONNELL: It’s investment I’m afraid, you can’t get away from it.

SR: Just money.

JOHN McDONNELL: It isn’t just money, it’s about listening to the people on the front line.  I work closely with my local hospital, I meet with my local GPs, what’s happened basically is an erosion of investment that isn’t meeting the demands that we have.  I am also worried that there has been large scale privatisation where money has been poured into private companies for profits rather than for healthcare itself but my biggest worry at the moment, what’s happening in our health service of course but also in terms of social care.  I met with the social care providers this week and what they’re saying is that there are some big companies that we worried about being at risk because local authority money has been cut back, they can’t afford to pay effectively to these companies what is needed to ensure they maintain a standard of care but what the social care providers were saying to me this week is it isn’t just the big companies, it is the small providers and if we don’t have some movement from the government over the next few months we could see a number of them going to the wall.  So where do those elderly people then go because they are homeless effectively?  We then have to look to the local authority then to intervene but the local authorities are saying across the piece, across all political parties, they are at a tipping point on social care and that is about investment I’m afraid.

SR: So if it’s about investment, how much are you prepared to put up taxes then to pay for the NHS?

JOHN McDONNELL: I think it’s about rebalancing our tax system.  I’ll just give this example, over the next five or six years the government will be giving away to the wealthiest in our society and to the corporations, the smallest and most conservative with a small c estimate is £70 billion.  Why are we giving money away to corporations and the wealthy when actually our public services are being undermined?  We have got to rebalance our tax system.

SR: So in other words, you want to put up taxes but for the wealthy or for the …?

JOHN McDONNELL: I want to stop the tax cuts that are taking place to the wealthiest and to the corporations that the government is planning for the next five or six years.

SR: So that really is another way of saying put up taxes.

JOHN McDONNELL: It’s saying stop giving away money to those who don’t need it when there is a need for investment in our public services.  

SR: Let’s talk about a few other policies now, so in your opinion when Labour goes into the next election will they still have a policy to renew Trident?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well the Labour party policy is renew Trident, that’s it.  I don’t support it but I have one vote like every other Labour party member, I voted against Trident, the majority was in favour.  I’m a democrat, I respect people’s wishes.

SR: And are you looking at the maximum wage?  Is that something that …?

JOHN McDONNELL: We’re looking at pay ratios, yes.  It’s interesting this because we’ve been talking about this for the last couple of years and certainly since Jeremy was elected leader, we’ve been arguing for pay ratios.

SR: But not a cap?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well a pay ratio effectively is a cap because what it means is that if you are going to have a high rate at the top you’ve got to bring the rates up at the lower levels, and that is one of the most effective ways I think of tackling some of the issues around inequality but in addition to that, can I just give the example of what’s happened here?

SR: Yes, please do.

JOHN McDONNELL: We’ve got a strike on in this constituency at the moment at Heathrow Airport, BA workers.  A few years ago cabin crew would earn about £35,000 a year, the new cabin crew that are now recruited are on half that wage, nearly half that wage.  In the meantime, the Chief Executive of BA five or six years’ ago would earn around £800,000, now he is earning nearly £8 million.  No wonder the workers are angry, that’s why there’s a strike on at the moment, no wonder people are angry.  They’re seeing their wages cut while the Chief Exec’s wages and some of the other senior staff are literally I think being paid huge fortunes.  That breeds not just inequality but breeds discontent and that’s why people are on strike, they’re so angry about it.  If you had a pay ratio it would mean that you wouldn’t have the grotesque inequalities but would actually lift wages up at the bottom as well.

SR: You mentioned strikes, I was delayed getting home this morning because of the train strikes, would you stand on a picket line?

JOHN McDONNELL: Yes, of course, I’m a trade unionist, of course I would and I don’t say that in any provocative way or anything like that.  People don’t go on strike easily particularly if you are a working class person, you haven’t got an awful lot in the bank to tide you over and if you look at some of the statistics and research recently it’s shocking how little people have got to fall back on so they don’t go on strike lightly.  If I can just say about the BA dispute in my constituency here, I know it’s disruptive and I apologise to those people who are having their lives disrupted as a result of that, it’s a justifiable anger and I can understand why they are going on strike and on behalf of my constituency I joined that strike, I support them.  I think their cause is just, it’s as simple as that.  

SR: This is supposed to be the week of the big Jeremy Corbyn relaunch, that’s what we are told in the media anyway but things didn’t go quite to plan.  It’s been quite a difficult week for Labour really, Jeremy Corbyn making a slight U-turn you could say on that day, the polls not really showing any improvement for Labour.  If this is still the situation before the next election do you think Jeremy Corbyn will stand down?

JOHN McDONNELL: It’s not going to be the situation before the next election, it’s not, it’s not.  I thought this week was pretty good, I thought it was pretty good.  On the issues that we wanted to get across on the day, the issue around pay was raised and he answered honestly in the authentic way he always does.  That dominated the media for two days and we drew people into a debate that they had never had before, well certainly not for a long time and we drew them on our own terms as well.  We opened up the discussion around free movement and our relationship with Europe, that discussion will go on and I think it will be incredibly creative.

SR: One of the other things people want to see as well of course is people who have got a firm grip on the economy.  YouGov recently saying only 14% of people trust Labour to run the economy, you’re the Shadow Chancellor, that’s your fault isn’t it?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well it’s interesting because I was looking at those polls as well.  Even before the ’97 General Election people were not trusting Labour on the economy, we were behind in the polls then, even under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown in opposition so it’s been a traditional problem with opposition parties but …

SR: Not 14%.

JOHN McDONNELL: It’s been very low, we were 20 points behind before even under Ed Balls and the reason for that at the moment is because of course people still cannot forgive Labour because they were in power during the big crash in 2007/2008 and we’ve been well behind since then.  Rebuilding that confidence is difficult, of course it is, but we’re doing it, slowly but surely we will and what we’re doing is bringing people together from all walks of life, from trade unions and businesses and community representatives, to say what are the issues in your local economy, how can we plan that economy, what resources do you need, what do you want central government to do?  In that way it will take time, in that way we are trying to raise the whole level of economic debate in this country, stop talking down to people and start listening to people again.

SR: Just finally, some of the Labour MPs that I speak to are not necessarily the greatest fans of yourself or Jeremy Corbyn …

JOHN McDONNELL: I can’t believe that!

SR: These people do but they give the impression of you, that they’re almost a bit frightened of you, that you’re a bit like a firebrand but when you go on TV you come across as almost like a mild mannered accountant, who is the real John McDonnell?

JOHN McDONNELL: I come from Liverpool originally, I’m a Scouser originally, I lost my accent because we moved south for work but I’m straight with people, I tell people how I feel.  Sometimes I may go over the top but I am also often ready to apologise if I do but I’d rather back them than anything else, I want to know what you honestly think about things and that’s how I operate.

SR: Mr McDonnell, thank you very much.

JOHN McDONNELL: Thank you.  

SR: So there, John McDonnell is an MP from a working class background who represents a constituency that defies the Labour stereotype of the North London champagne socialism and it’s clear that his left-wing values go down pretty well but do they appeal to the rest of the country?  That is the real test for the Labour party.  Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell there, insisting it’s been a good week for the Labour party.