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SOPHY RIDGE: Well she’s the woman who once said that Boris Johnson is the life and soul of the party but he’s not the man you want driving you home at the end of the evening. So has Amber Rudd changed her mind about the man who could be the next Prime Minister? I went to Hastings to sit down with the Work and Pensions Secretary where we also discussed mental health provision as part of our Any Other Business series in an attempt to talk about issues slipping down the political agenda because of Brexit. Once tipped as a leadership candidate herself, she is now throwing her considerable clout behind Jeremy Hunt. So you have been attending a mental health summit today, why is that a focus for you?

AMBER RUDD: Because I want to make sure that people understand the support that is available for people of all ages with mental health challenges. Actually in Hastings there are a lot of organisations that are available to people and my purpose this morning was to showcase that and make sure there is sufficient support to help people with those needs.

SR: Are you concerned about some of the reports about Universal Credit and mental health, a report from the Money Mental Health Unit saying that Universal Credit has made people with existing mental health problems feel very anxious to have an assessment, 93% saying that they are anxious waiting for that assessment.

AMBER RUDD: I know that people are sometimes anxious about Universal Credit and I’m keen to dispel a lot of the myths about Universal Credit. Actually when I talk to people who have gone on to Universal Credit they usually say to me actually I was worried about but now it’s fine, it’s a much better service and when I talk to workplaces I ask them what they would like to change about Universal Credit and they often say to me, our reputation. Actually it’s a good service, well delivered and I need to have more confidence from people going on to Universal Credit that it will be a positive experience.

SR: But not everyone.

AMBER RUDD: It is good for everyone, it is a much better service than the one it replaces, six different benefits it replaces but the real difference, and this came out this morning at the mental health seminar I was holding this morning, is it is a personalised, tailored experience so that individual needs are met. It’s not a one size fits all and one of the things that one of the workplaces was saying is that it’s about helping people get back into work because a lot of people are ready for work but a lot of people with very difficult mental health challenges aren’t ready for work and we recognise that and will help get them ready for work, get them ready for the job market by signposting [inaudible].

SR: Are you worried that with everything going on in politics at the moment – Brexit, the leadership election – that issues like mental health are not being addressed or spoken about in Westminster as much as they should be?

AMBER RUDD: Well of course it’s a challenge. We have to make sure that as MPs and as Secretaries of State that we give enough time and indeed volume to our own areas and what MPs are particularly interested in and I’m really proud that one of the things I’ve been focusing on is on raising awareness about mental health, giving people the confidence to talk about it and to support their needs and where to access it.

SR: Now you’re backing Jeremy Hunt to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and the next Prime Minister. Were you a bit disappointed that he didn’t quite get enough MPs to wrap up that race?

AMBER RUDD: Well I think everybody wants their MP to do better but overall Jeremy did do very well, we wanted to come second and for there to be a good margin between him and the third person and that took place so we were both pleased with the outcome.

SR: Were you really pleased? Not disappointed?

AMBER RUDD: No, no. I mean nobody knew how the other candidates were going to do, we got more than … We got the same I think as Matt and Sajid combined so he shows himself as the clear next person after Boris and I hope we’ll be able to build on that.

SR: Are you hoping to pick up some of Matt Hancock’s supporters?

AMBER RUDD: Well I hope everybody who got less than they would have hoped will think about backing Jeremy Hunt as the best candidate.

SR: You say the best candidate, are you concerned that for some people he is actually the continuity candidate?

AMBER RUDD: He is not continuity …

SR: What does he offer that’s different?

AMBER RUDD: I think that the fact that he’s got me and Penny Mordaunt shows that he can embrace two sides of the party that is divided. The most important thing I think for a new leader will be able to address the division not just in the country and in Parliament but amongst MPs in our own party and Jeremy has shown that he has been able to do that. I am unclear that any other candidate can do that.

SR: On the show last weekend I asked Jeremy Hunt about his stance on abortion and he said that he would personally reduce the time in which you could get an abortion from 24 weeks to 12, do you worry about that?

AMBER RUDD: I phoned Jeremy actually that day and I spoke to him and he reassured me and reassured people publicly that he has no plans to change the abortion laws as they stand. I am very clear, I am very clear that any government that I am part of that Jeremy Hunt has to be absolutely committed to maintaining those rights as they stand.

SR: What did you say to him in that phone call?

AMBER RUDD: Well I questioned his suggestion that it should be reduced all. I think we very robust and effective abortion laws and they do not need changing.

SR: A lot of women though – and I accept that he said that it’s not a policy that he would seek to bring in and it is a matter of conscience but a lot of women will be concerned at the thought that a future Prime Minister would want to halve the amount of time …

AMBER RUDD: Anyone who is concerned about that should listen carefully to what he subsequently said which is that it is out of the question for any government he ran would attempt to make any changes and they can take comfort from that as I did.

SR: I remember when ‘Bamber’ was a thing, were you really considering being part of Team Boris Johnson?

AMBER RUDD: Well I prefer ‘Jamber’! It was a thing insofar as I was talking to all the different candidates but I think at the end of the day Jeremy would do a much better job.

SR: What happened when you had those talks?

AMBER RUDD: My concern is going to be really about delivering on Brexit but also maintaining the economy and my concern is that some candidates are approaching Brexit with a sort of do or die approach and not considering the consequences to people’s jobs here in Hastings and car manufacturing jobs up in the north, all of these vital elements of building a strong economy which depend on a strong relationship with the European Union and to simply say we are definitely leaving October 31st and to lean into no deal I think is a mistake.

SR: Boris Johnson has gone further than that, he hasn’t ruled out proroguing or suspending Parliament in order to push through a no deal.

AMBER RUDD: That is absolutely outrageous. The idea of leaving the European Union in order to take back more control into Parliament and to consider closing Parliament in order to deal with that is the most extraordinary idea I’ve ever heard.

SR: Rory Stewart has said that he’d be prepared to set up another parliamentary session across the road, would you join him?

AMBER RUDD: Well I don’t use the same colourful language as Rory but I certainly feel just as strongly as he does. It is a ridiculous suggestion to consider proroguing parliament. For a start it would involve approaching the Queen and nobody should consider doing that. We may have our difficulties around arriving at a decision but the idea of involving the Queen is completely wrong.

SR: Do you think Boris Johnson would make a good Prime Minister?

AMBER RUDD: I think Jeremy Hunt would make a better one.

SR: You didn’t quite answer that.

AMBER RUDD: I can’t rule it out because clearly Boris is in the lead but I hope that once we go forward and people see the debates and see how some of the arguments being put forward by different candidates don’t really hold water, they’ll realise that the best person to go with is Jeremy. The challenge of Boris’s approach is he is saying we are definitely leaving by October 31st but that is not in his gift to do, it will need support from a majority of MPs because MPs are inventive, Parliament is thoughtful, the Speaker is an activist, there will be a way of stopping it and I wish people would stop saying we are definitely leaving on October 31st when there are so many other parts that can come into play that could stop that. I don’t want people to be misled again.

SR: Would you serve under Boris Johnson?

AMBER RUDD: I think it’s too early to say that, it would be too presumptuous of me to think about anyone else forming a cabinet and not knowing what place you are going to take.

SR: But you would accept a lift home from him I guess?

AMBER RUDD: I am still thinking very carefully about any lifts home from Boris.

SR: Oh really! Now does it bother you that there are only men left in the leadership contest?

AMBER RUDD: Yes, it does bother me because I think the party needs to do better at that. Okay, we can thank the fact that we’ve had two women Prime Ministers, we’re the only party who has but the best way to get more women at senior levels and potentially as candidates for a future Prime Minister, is to get more women becoming MPs. We only have unfortunately just over 20% of our MPs are women, we need to get more women in the party, more women on the candidates list and I and a lot of other senior women Conservative MPs are doing our best to encourage them.

SR: Does it worry you that perhaps the place for a woman in this leadership contest is not running to be Prime Minister but it’s in the kitchen having close up snaps with their husband?

AMBER RUDD: That’s not the look I’m going for when I want to encourage women to get involved in politics. I want them to find their own role, to become MPs and hopefully move up the ministerial ranks and I think as Conservatives we need to constantly say that so that people don’t look at us and draw the wrong conclusions.

SR: You have said previously that the party should not be parading partners, that’s your words. Jeremy Hunt is doing that isn’t he? I mean he took his wife on the foreign trip to get those pictures didn’t he? The first thing he said at his campaign launch is say where’s my wife, he described her as his secret weapon.

AMBER RUDD: Well I’m doing my best in trying to say that there are women involved in Conservative party politics who are not partners but who are out there as Secretaries of State and making the case. The fact is, if you are standing as Prime Minister, it is true you have to reveal more of your personal life and I think part of the problem is we don’t have enough women standing or any women standing for that senior role at the moment.

SR: So why didn’t you run?

AMBER RUDD: Well the way is to get more in as Conservative MPs at the bottom. I decided not to run, one of the things as politician is you need a certain amount of self-awareness and I am aware that the Conservative party requires somebody who has great enthusiasm for Brexit and although I am committed to it, I want to tread more carefully than I think some of the members of the party do.

SR: So you are not enthusiastic?

AMBER RUDD: I am committed to it but I do want to tread more carefully than some of my colleagues.

SR: What methods do you think it would send out about the modern day Conservative party if the last two people in the race are Jeremy Hunt and Boris Johnson, two white men, both went to public school and then to Oxford University? If I was a member of the Labour party press office I know what attack lines I’d be using.

AMBER RUDD: I think that actually what people will judge us on is their ability to engage in debates and to make the arguments and to show [inaudible]. We are in a very difficult position, a very difficult place as a country and our negotiations with the European Union and in our standing in the world, there are a lot of questions going on about the United Kingdom and what we need is someone who is going to solve that and I think that other details are going to really come into second place. Who is going to be able to solve this problem so that we can move on to what most of think politics needs to do which is to solve the problems for people in our wonderful constituencies.

SR: Amber Rudd in Hastings.