ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: It’s the biggest political exodus since 1981. Eight Labour MPs and three Conservatives quit to form a new alliance, calling themselves the Independent Group. Right now it has no structure, few policies and no leader but that could change pretty soon so this week it felt right to visit Streatham in south London and talk to Chuka Umunna, a man who told me he wants to play the biggest role in the Independent Group.

Streatham in south London, it’s one of the country’s most economically and ethnically diverse constituencies, united amongst other things by its pro-European stance with 78% voting to remain in the referendum. On Friday morning I caught up with the local MP, Chuka Umunna, at a local youth centre. I started by asking him about why he’d changed his mind about leaving the Labour party.

In 2016, I just want to read a tweet that you sent in response to a Conservative commentator about a potential split in Labour.

CHUKA UMUNNA: Tim Montgomerie, yes.

SR: Tim Montgomerie, you know it. “The courageous thing to do is to stay in our party, if we leave and split we give your Tory party decades in office. No, thanks.”

CHUKA UMUNNA: And that was genuinely what I thought at that point. Let me tell you why I’ve changed my mind. One was after really soul-searching on this issue, can I in all conscience say that I want to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister and the team around him, put them in charge of our national security? Now the 2017 general election, I have to be honest, nobody thought that that was going to be a prospect, a future general election it could be a prospect and in all conscience I can’t do that. Secondly they’re both as bad as each other, I don’t want either a Labour or a Tory government and the third thing is …

SR: If you had to make a choice between them, who would you choose?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well I think they are both as bad as each other, as I said. And really the third point, if you look at what has transpired in the party, the awful appalling culture which is illustrated vividly by the disgraceful anti-Semitism in the party, a visceral hatred of people of other opinions, a refusal to accept that actually it might be okay not to necessarily think that everything that Jeremy Corbyn says is golden. It’s become unbearable and I think ultimately that is what has driven people to leave the party and it’s a great sadness. I wish I still felt the same as I did in 2016 but I don’t.

SR: You don’t. You say it’s been unbearable, what has it actually been like?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Going to meetings, being heckled, shouted at. I have received threats from supporters of the leader where I’ve had to call in the police and somebody was arrested. Ultimately you don’t join a party to be fighting year after year other people within it, you join a political party because you want to change our country and change the world and I found that a ridiculous amount of my time was being taken up dealing with internal matters. At times it’s been extremely unsettling and you do question why am I doing this? This is not normal. When I’ve been on your show before I’ve said part of the problem in politics at the moment is that the extraordinary has become ordinary. These types of behaviours have become normalised.

SR: Who do you blame? Do you blame Jeremy Corbyn?

CHUKA UMUNNA: I blame Jeremy Corbyn but I’m sorry, I also blame other people who have acted as bystanders. It is disgraceful that the Shadow Cabinet has not done more, not been more vocal, not demanded more, not threatened to resign over what has been going on over anti-Semitism and the problem is, it’s too easy to choose an easy life because there is a rule by fear. Particularly post-2017 when the Labour party rule was retained, MP after MP is frightened of being removed from their station, from being an MP. Now what I think the leadership on the left didn’t bargain on is actually, certainly for me my principles, my values, what I believe in, come before being an MP and if just being an MP is the kind of end in itself and not your values and your principles and you’re not prepared to lose your job for your values and your principles, you should not be doing it in my view.

SR: Now it’s important to say there are those around the leader who dispute what you say. They say they are taking it absolutely seriously, that they are investigating complaints and that they are rooting out people who have behaved in that way.

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well look, first of all it starts from the top, right. You have a leader who backed up and promoted an anti-Semitic mural, you have a leader who has talked about Jewish people not having an English sense of irony, you have a leader who has attended a wreath laying ceremony for terrorists and on top of that you’ve got a party that calls disciplining someone – so there have been people who have been guilty of egregious anti-Semitism and their sanction is just being reminded of the guidelines. That is not a party taking it seriously …

SR: So do you think he is anti-Semitic?

CHUKA UMUNNA: I don't know whether he is personally anti-Semitic, his actions would seem to suggest he’s got questions to answer on that front but I’ve been very clear that the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic and either you put your head in the sand and you ignore it or you actually do something about it. The failure to do something about it, just for me, I just found it made my position untenable. My family have been victims of racism, one of the reasons I joined the Labour party was because of its anti-racist ideals but if that isn’t matched by its actions then I can’t have anything to do with an outfit that goes along with that.

SR: Heidi Allen, another member of the Independent Group, said that you are probably going to be the leader, are you?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well I’m not. We’re an Independent Group, we haven’t formally met yet, we’ll be doing that in the coming weeks …

SR: You have a bit of a smile on your face there, does it tempt you?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Look, I’m clear I want to play the biggest role in this group and I think one of the things about the way we operate is the recognition that we’re all leaders and I think one of the things …

SR: Oh come on, that’s a little bit of a cop out.

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well it’s not because the way you are institutionalised in the main parties is there is a great leader who you clap in and out and the rest, who you worship and everything is wonderful and …

SR: So that’s what you’re hoping for?

CHUKA UMUNNA: No, I don’t want that, I wouldn’t want that because I don’t think that is necessarily the most grown up way of doing politics and everybody has got a role to play. People may have different views, great, let’s hear that out, let’s work them through and come up with policies and we’re going to try our best to be culturally different from the existing parties and the fact that you have got people coming from different traditions and we’re not tribal, is I think the key difference culturally of the group compared to the Establishment parties, all of them.

SR: So we know what you’re against, we know you’re against Brexit, that’s clear but what is the Independence Group actually for?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well look, we are a group of independents at the moment, we are not a party and we are not a movement. Please do go and look at our website, the Independent.Group to find out more about us. We have sent out in detail our values there. I think, look, ultimately our party system is broken. You’ve got a bunch of parties which are divided, which are not doing their job with the contents people expect and not putting the national interest first. Now we’re quite clear that we believe that we should have the closest possible relationship with the European Union because we’re Internationalists. We believe that the individual should be given a platform to succeed, that we have individual responsibilities ourselves and people don’t want their lives to be run by the state, that they would support education, infrastructure and the health service but also we believe ultimately work is an incredibly important value and we need to give people a level of security that they expect. Now none of the established parties are providing the answers to those challenges and if you think of the …

SR: But what kind of policies could what is quite a disparate group of MPs, what policies could you unite everyone specifically on?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well we’ve set out our values. I think in week one for us to set out a full policy programme, a manifesto, given we’re not a party, wouldn’t be the right thing but let me just say this. Look, one of the strengths of our group is that you’ve got people who yes, share progressive values but they come from different traditions, from the one nation Conservative tradition, the centre left within the Labour party, the Liberal tradition. So you have got these different traditions which are united behind a set of values and one thing that people have been really interested in is what do, for the example, the different members think about the austerity we have seen over years now. Some, like Anna Soubry, a former Minister, is quite clear that she thinks the fiscal trajectory her government was on in office was the right one, others like me think actually it was the wrong one.

SR: It is quite a big difference isn’t it?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Yes, but this is the point. If within our group we are capable of forming a consensus around policies when we get to that point then we have a much better chance of coming up with something that can divide our united nation. You see this is what I think people struggle to understand, part of our argument is that the old tribal politics where you have opposition for opposition’s sake, is done. I think the public are done with that. I think one of the refreshing things that they found in the Brexit debate is that you have got people from the left and the right of British politics have come together where they actually agree on something and actually in any event, I talk about the left and the right and we know this left/right fulcrum around which politics has revolved over the last few decades is nowhere near as important as it was. Your age, the demography, your age, your background, your class, your geography – all of these things, these cultural issues, are playing much more in British politics and yet politics and the system and these old parties are carrying on like nothing has changed. They just want to carry on and do business as usual, the status quo when what we need in this country is fundamental change.

SR: You are talking there about a great realignment of politics, ripping up the rule book. I just wonder whether actually this is more about a group of people who are passionate remainers, the thing that unites them is a second referendum. Getting together over Brexit, the most likely thing to happen perhaps is that the party leaders decide actually you can be ignored because your votes are already written in and you are all going to lose your seats at the next election, that’s it isn’t it?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well the DUP have exercised quite a lot of influence in this Parliament and there are ten DUP MPs and there are eleven of us and so in a hung Parliament a relatively small number of MPs can actually make a difference.

SR: But can you go into a conference actually preparing to be Prime Minister …?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Hang on, let me finish answering the question which is look, I do think we need a realignment. We are trying to break a system which is usually rigged in favour of some established parties, I think we can overcome that now. There is no doubt that we have to completely tear up our electoral system altogether and have a proper system of proportional representation which better reflects the modern tapestry of Britain but right now, can we make a go of this? Can we make a change? We’ve got to try and I definitely think we can.

SR: Will you be fighting Streatham at the next election?

CHUKA UMUNNA: I certainly don’t intend to leave the field. Look, this is the community I’m from and I grew up in and the reason why I left the Labour party this week is because I believe the party has betrayed my community. We scored the highest remain vote in the country in 2016, I stood on my own personal platform which committed to campaign and do everything to stop the Tory hard Brexit and that is not what the party is doing and that is why I have decided to leave it but this is my community, I represent it, I have no intention of leaving the field.

SR: Leaving the field in Streatham?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Leaving the field. This is my community, my family is here so why would I leave it?

SR: Do you not worry though that it seems a bit cowardly to not fight a by-election right now?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well I believe, and the Independent Group believes in parliamentary democracy and under our constitution as Jeremy Corbyn has said himself very clearly, he has tweeted to this effect, you elect the individual first and foremost.

SR: That’s a technical answer though isn’t it?

CHUKA UMUNNA: Well it’s not technical, that is actually our constitution and if I look at why people voted for me in 2017, I got an over 15% increase in my vote primarily because of my stance on Brexit and again and again on the doorsteps people said I’m not very keen on what your party has been saying on Brexit and I’m not terribly keen on your leader because of his previous eurosceptic position but I do like your position so I’m going to stick with you.

SR: Chuka Umunna there, talking at a youth centre in Streatham.