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SOPHY RIDGE: Theresa May was back in Brussels this week to try and negotiate a solution to the Irish backstop issue. Just hours earlier three of her own MPs has announced they were leaving the party because of Brexit among other things and in their joint resignation letter Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allan said “We no longer feel that we can remain in a party of a government whose policies and priorities are so firmly in the grip of the ERG and the DUP. Brexit has redefined the Conservative party.” Well joining us now is the former leader of the Conservative party and a prominent Brexiteer, Iain Duncan Smith, thank you very much for being with us. What is your reaction to the fact that three Conservative MPs quit the party this week?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Well I’m sorry they have chosen to go, I’m a little puzzled as to why they’ve gone when I’ve looked at what they’ve actually said. Clearly Europe is at the heart of it and Europe is a big issue, the Brexit issue, they all of them didn’t want to leave and I think they have been very strongly in favour of staying so I can understand that they feel like they want to make a statement but I am really sad to see them go. I saw Anna Soubry busy defending the government’s position on its spending review and what the Labour party call the austerity programme, so there is clearly not quite this complete agreement about what they stand for but you know, I hope the door shall be open and that they’ll come back and I’m certain that they will at some point.

SR: You think they eventually will rejoin the Conservative party?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Well I think so, well I hope so because the Conservative party is actually a broad church, we’ve always had competing views and differences about policy, even in government and outside of government but we’ve always clung together in the best interests of the nation, always put forward the things that are really important, security and that sense that we always represent the UK across the board regardless of income and regardless of status and that I think is still the same today and nobody could have represented that more than the Prime Minister frankly.

SR: You say that the Conservative party is a broad church but clearly these women are feeling that that church is shrinking, that the Conservative party is moving further to the right, that the dominant voices in the Conservative party, in perhaps the European Research Group, who are effectively taking over the party. Do you have any sympathy with that point of view?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Well I just don’t agree with it I’m afraid. I listened to the Chairman earlier on and I think he is absolutely right. I think the truth is that it isn’t a case of us lurching one side or the other, the British people voted to leave, a majority voted to leave the European Union. The Conservative party is trying to deliver that. Now there are elements which we may agree or disagree about but we are trying to find a way through to do that. I think from the standpoint of where some of them stand and others, they simply don’t want to leave, that’s fine. If you hold that opinion that’s a different idea altogether but the Prime Minister has said we must deliver on the biggest democratic vote in our history and I think that’s right. We’re leaving and we’re leaving on the 29th and she has been very clear about that so I don’t see any lurches. What I see is a party in government without a majority, feeling its way forward to try and get to that point and I’m optimistic, I believe we will reach an agreement.

SR: Let’s have a look specifically at something one of those MPs said, this is Heidi Allen. She said that welfare was one of the big reasons for her wanting to leave the Conservative party, “I can no longer represent a party that can’t open its eyes to suffering in our society, suffering that has deepened when it was in our power to fix it.” I mean that’s a pretty powerful statement.

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: It is, but it’s an incorrect statement I have to tell you. This government, both the Cameron government and this government, have done more to help people out of poverty. What we have actually seen is, as the Chairman said earlier on, more people back in work than ever before, more people having the pride of an income that allows them to rise out of poverty. The only one way really to get yourself completely out of poverty is through work and we have seen the highest numbers in work, the biggest fall in youth unemployment and unemployment. Across the whole of Europe we lead the way in this and also the reforms that we have put forward have actually benefited people dramatically. Of course there is a political row and a debate about this and I myself resigned because there were some cuts to it which I didn’t agree with.

SR: That’s the point isn’t it? Because there are some who argue that Universal Credit, while some people may have benefited, an awful lot of people, too many people have been made poorer because of it, have faced delays to receiving their payments and I just wondered if this was one of things that Heidi Allen meant.

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: No, she’s a big supporter of Universal Credit, let’s be very clear. She has spoken again and again …

SR: A reformed Universal Credit.

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Hold on, a Universal Credit. No, what actually happened was the last government took out nearly five billion from it. We’ve now campaigned, it’s this government that’s put the money back and that is now allowing the present Secretary of State for the Department of Work and Pensions to actually make the changes to take it back to where it was. This is a massive improvement. Do you know, Universal Credit has the lowest number of complaints of any benefit ever implemented by any government? There are things you don’t ever hear but actually the vast, vast majority are actually in a better state, it’s more flexible, it means they don’t have to make repeat claims. Yes, of course there will always be problems on the fringes as you roll it out but the idea is this is being rolled out to change those where necessary. So I don’t agree with her and she herself probably doesn’t agree with what she’s actually said.

SR: Okay and before we move on to Brexit I am interested to hear what you think about the timing of the political debate at the minute. We have hard anonymous briefings from some of your Conservative colleagues using very violent imagery towards the Prime Minister, the women who have left the Conservative party have themselves faced a lot of abuse on social media, do you think everyone needs to dial it down a bit?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: I wish. I think by the way that social media, Twitter, is an abusive process. I don’t go on it because I think it’s highly abusive, it is particularly abusive to women but it’s abusive to men as well. There has been a heightened sense of anger after the vote. I always thought that it divides the country, a referendum, you can only have one in a generation on something as big as this and people do need to take a pace back and recognise there was a vote, there was a majority and now we need to get on with it. But there’s no excuse whatsoever for this kind of level of abuse that has been taking place. We’ve seen what’s been happening in the Labour party with anti-Semitism, that’s unacceptable. Any kind of abuse of anybody, whether they are male or female, in politics like that is absolutely outrageous and should be banned and I do hope as we bring the new regulations forward we’ll find a way to actually proceed against people who do this and also the companies who publish this. I am in absolute agreement with those who say companies who do online work such as Facebook and Twitter and everything else, need to be responsible for what’s published on their sites. The sooner we get to that, the better and we might see quite a lot of this then curtailed.

SR: Okay, so now let’s talk about Brexit and another big story in the news this week because we have seen some members of the Cabinet saying that if there is no agreement they would support an extension to Article 50 and a delay to Brexit. I mean, is this a breach of collective responsibility?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Well I read the article, the letter, and I thought that actually it was. My general sense is that you can have rows behind closed doors, you can argue with the Prime Minister, you can try and get the government and the Prime Minister to move in a particular direction. You can even sometimes indicate that and the media pick that up, but I think what’s really difficult is if you then state that, in opposition to the government that you are part of, publicly then I think that becomes an issue. The Prime Minister has made it clear that government policy is not to rule out a no-deal situation because you can’t. We are due to leave on the 29th and the Prime Minister has made it clear we want a deal, she has got a deal on the table, they are looking for adjustments at the moment and I am optimistic they will get something and I am very, very keen we should be able to support them providing they get those changes that are binding but you can’t do that if the other side knows that no matter what, you will not leave and therefore they can throw anything at you. That would be wrong but I think to do it publicly is a mistake on their part.

SR: So if it is a breach of collective responsibility do you think they need to resign from Cabinet then?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Well that’s a decision they have to take and it’s for them and Downing Street. I’m a backbencher now, I remember when I disagreed with the government I departed because I just felt it would be dishonest to disagree with the government and then go on taking, as it were, the Queen’s shilling. If you are in government it’s a privilege, it’s a privilege not just for income but it’s a privilege because you wield a certain amount of power and influence and therefore I think you need to think very carefully. Collective responsibility is how government’s down the ages have worked and it is how this constitution works and I do hope they will reflect on that because they are doing the Prime Minister no good at all and they do government no good at all by becoming quite so publicly opposed to what is essentially government policy. The Prime Minister is absolutely right in this, that we cannot take no deal off the table because we need to make sure that they, those in the EU, understand that Britain is leaving on the 29th and then we will get some movement. There is some quite good news out there, I see that Steve Barclay has at least got the EU to move a bit to say that they will now look very specifically into the stuff that we put forward into the Malthouse compromise. Myself, other leavers and remainers came together to propose this and now the EU is beginning to say yes. Maybe that is the solution, we’ll look at that, we need to get that bound in. Why would you undermine your own Cabinet colleague, Geoffrey Cox, going over to try and negotiate a backstop to the backstop and instead of which you told them, don’t worry about that because we will never leave on an no deal. Geoffrey Cox has to be able to negotiate and they should support him.

SR: You were talking earlier about being optimistic about the way the negotiations are heading. I have to say I spoke to Simon Coveney earlier in the programme, the Deputy Prime Minister in Ireland, and he was absolutely emphatic that there were going to be no changes to the Withdrawal Agreement so I just want to know what do you need to see to be able to support the deal?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: We said that the changes need to be legally binding, we have been very clear about that.

SR: In the backstop, in the Withdrawal Agreement?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: They need to be legally binding so you define that. The way the Withdrawal Agreement is written is itself legally binding, the other one isn’t but you know, let’s just see where the government goes on this.

SR: So it could be an addition, it doesn’t have to be in the text of the Withdrawal Agreement itself?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: I think it should be in the text because that’s the way you make it legally binding but we’ll see what the negotiations produce. All I would say to Simon Coveney is, you have created a monster at the moment because Ireland itself is in deep trouble if we leave without a deal, I mean really serious deep trouble. They are now talking about that, there are big questions being asked in Ireland. Of course Mr Coveney is going to come on and say no change, but behind the scenes in the European Union they know very well that they do not want us to leave with no deal and the right thing to do is to make the changes. After all, what do we know about the backstop? It’s utterly unworkable. Even the EU knows they couldn’t implement it tomorrow if they tried because it’s got the most ludicrous border arrangements for the UK, the rest of the UK and Europe and it would be chaos. So you have got now an agreement to implement something which is unimplementable, therefore it has to have changes. Why not accept that and do the changes now, agree to make that process of change part of the agreement? It’s not a lot to ask by the way because it’s common sense from all sides and common sense is really what we’re after so let’s let those going to do the negotiations negotiate and I’d say to one or two of my colleagues in government, it wouldn’t be a good idea to undermine them while they do that.

SR: It’s interesting about undermining, but with my cynical hat on I am just wondering if we are moving towards a situation where the choice put to MPs is a long extension to Article 50 or the Prime Minister’s deal. I mean that seems to be what these members of the Cabinet are pushing towards, that was what Olly Robbins the Brexit negotiator suggested when he was there, overheard in a Brussels bar. Do you think that’s where it could end up?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Well I don’t actually because the Prime Minister, to be fair to her, has been absolutely clear. Bear in mind …

SR: So you trust Theresa May whatever she says?

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Well I trust the manifesto. It is worth reminding my colleagues they all stood on a manifesto of …

SR: That hasn’t stopped any of them.

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH: Well they stood on a manifesto that said leaving on the 29th, we’re not staying in the customs union, single market, all the rest of it. So they were committed at the time of the vote and yesterday by the way that was reinforced, I don't know if you spotted it but the National Convention, which is all of the heads of the voluntary party in the Conservative party, all overwhelmingly voted not to extend and to leave on the 29th and basically in support of the Prime Minister so that is a very powerful point, which is those people who have worked their guts out to get us here want us to get on and implement what the Prime Minister has said she wants. So we’re not a million miles away from achieving a deal but the key question is, we need to be able to say to the European Union we are united in facing out that you need to make those changes necessary and that’s a negotiation. You can’t negotiate – and I don't know if any of them have ever negotiated before but if you negotiate by saying, oh by the way, don’t worry, whatever we get it will be acceptable at the end of the day and if necessary, we can carry on talking forever. You’d look ridiculous in a negotiation.

SR: Okay, thank you very much for being on the show this morning.