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SOPHY RIDGE: Conservative Brexiteers have reacted angrily to the Prime Minister’s talks with Jeremy Corbyn and predicted open revolt so let’s get the views of the Chairman of the Eurosceptic group of Conservative MPs, the ERG, Jacob Rees-Mogg, who joins us now. Thank you very much for being with us this morning. So does it fill you with optimism that Jeremy Corbyn is now part of the Brexit process?

JACOB REES-MOGG: I think having Jeremy Corbyn as part of the Brexit process is a mistake, that he is not sympathetic to the government obviously and is a Remainer, so what you’ve got is two Remainers trying to work out how we should leave, ignoring the 17.4 million people who voted to leave and ignoring the fact that Parliament has legislated not just once but twice for us to leave, with or without a deal in both the Article 50 Act and in the Withdrawal Act.

SR: You say Parliament has legislated to leave without a deal but it has also voted consistently against leaving without a deal and as Theresa May says this morning, the reason she has had to reach out to get a compromise with Jeremy Corbyn is because she simply can’t rely on Conservatives on her own side to back the deal, they forced her hand.

JACOB REES-MOGG: Well I think that’s an odd way of looking at it. The reason the Prime Minister hasn’t been able to get all the Conservative MPs to back her deal is that she failed to deliver on the promises she made in the Conservative party manifesto, in the Lancaster House speech and the Mansion House speech. She came back with a deal which potentially led to a division between Great Britain and Northern Ireland so the reason she’s in difficulties is her own creation, it’s not been forced upon her.

SR: But at the same time the Conservative party has failed to back the deal on the table, it’s failed to get enough support for a no deal exit which some on the back benches would like to see, so what is the solution?

JACOB REES-MOGG: Well I would question the failed to get enough support for a no deal. You are quite right, Parliament has passed motions objecting to a no deal Brexit but it passed a law, indeed two laws, that provided us to leave on the 29th March, subsequently delayed and law trumps motions and the Prime Minister could have taken us out on the 29th March. It was the Prime Minister who asked for an extension, it was the Prime Minister who changed the date by prerogative power from 29th March to 12th April, it all rests with her and upon her shoulders. She has made, the Prime Minister Mrs May, has made active choices to stop us leaving and she deserves to be held to account for that because people ought to know the truth of the position rather than trying to blame everybody else, blaming recalcitrant MPs and other Conservatives. If the Prime Minister had done what she’d said in the first place and had stuck to the law that was set out in two Acts, we would have left the European Union by now.

SR: I wonder though whether actually there is an argument that Conservative Brexiteers like yourself do need to shoulder some of the blame if, as many expect, the talks with Jeremy Corbyn lead to a softer Brexit or indeed no Brexit at all. You have consistently whipped opinion against Theresa May’s deal, you describe it as risking making Britain a slave state, that we’re risking paying £39 billion for nothing, I mean it’s no surprise she’s failed to get the support when people such as yourselves have been so opposed to the deal even though you did have a last minute conversion.

JACOB REES-MOGG: Well I voted for it the last time out because I thought it was the least bad option, that’s absolutely correct, but the least bad option because of the way decisions are being made by the government. What I said about slave state and £39 billion for nothing remain absolutely true, that Mrs May’s deal would leave us for 21 months subject to EU law and EU judges without any say over it at all and paying £39 billion without any guarantee of a free trade deal, two of the reasons why it is such a poor deal. The greatest reason of course being the potential to split up the United Kingdom at the behest of the EU, which is why I said last week if we are forced to remain in, we should be the most difficult member possible because I don't think the EU and its jargon has behaved towards us with sincere cooperation. I don't think sincere cooperation could possibly include trying to break up the unity of a member state when it leaves the European Union and therefore I think we are no longer obliged to follow sincere cooperation in return and when the Multi Annual Financial Framework comes forward, if we’re still in, this is our one in seven year opportunity to veto the budget and to be really very difficult and I hope that any British Prime Minister would take that opportunity.

SR: Can you just spell out – I mean you speak there about vetoing the budget, what exactly do you mean by being as disruptive as possible?

JACOB REES-MOGG: Well many things are taking over now by qualified majority vote and there’s nothing we can do about them. In terms of the budget, each annual budget is set by majority voting but the seven year budgetary framework requires unanimity and therefore we could veto that. We’d also be able to stop Mr Macron’s plans for further deep integration because those would almost certainly require treaty change so as they began to progress, if we were still a member, we would be able to stop them. So I think it’s trying to stop further integration and trying to ensure that it doesn’t cost us any more money, so these would be things that weren’t just difficult for their own sake but were also in the British national interest if we were still a member state.

SR: You see, listening to you speak, it sounds as if we have an awful lot of power whilst being a member of the European Union when I actually thought the whole point of trying to move was to get sovereignty back.

JACOB REES-MOGG: I know some people have said that in response to what I’ve said but I don't think they are looking at the detail. We can veto the budget one year in seven, for the other years we just have to take the budget that is delivered under that framework. All our laws on agriculture, on fishing, on trade, come from the European Union and we can be outvoted, we are one of 28 members. We can’t set our own VAT system in detail, we can’t take VAT off domestic fuel for example, things like that which are very important to people’s livelihoods, they are set by the European Union. We can’t control our borders, so no, no, this doesn’t undermine the general view that far too many laws come from the European Union and that we don’t have democratic control over it but what it does show is that if they keep us in, if they haven’t behaved with sincere cooperation, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

SR: So I wonder then, we’re talking about the possibility of staying in the European Union longer than many people expected, are you going to be voting the European Parliament elections or do you think the Conservative party should veto them if they happen?

JACOB REES-MOGG: Oh well, if we’re still in of course we should have European elections, it would be quite wrong – it is fascinating that all the people who want to stay in the European Union rather dislike democracy, they don’t like the next set of European elections and they certainly didn’t like referendum and it’s part of the problem with the EU, that it has a scheme of imposing things on people rather than having proper democratic engagement but yes, if we had those elections I would vote in them and I would always vote for a Conservative candidate.

SR: Talking about another election, lots of people are thinking that it may be that a general election is around the corner, are you concerned like some of your colleagues about inviting Jeremy Corbyn in to flesh out a Brexit compromise, Theresa May legitimising him and potentially putting him in to Number Ten?

JACOB REES-MOGG: Well I think you raise a very important point, that there is an irony at the very minimum of saying one week that one thinks Mr Corbyn is dangerous and unfit for office and the next week deciding to cohabit with him, not both of those statements can be true and I think the Prime Minister risks giving a degree of credibility to Mr Corbyn and undermining the general thrust of the Conservative argument that he is a Marxist who would be dangerous to this nation’s interests so yes, I think your fundamental point is right.

SR: If there was a snap election would Labour win?

JACOB REES-MOGG: [Laughs] That’s a really interesting question. If you look at the Newport by-election, both the Labour party and the Tory party saw their vote fall and theirs by slightly more than ours. Neither party is in touch with all of its electorate so 70% of Conservative voters now identify as Leavers and the Labour party has two electorates, one that is very pro-Remain and one that is very pro-Leave and the Labour party is alienating one part of its electorate so I think it’s simplistic to say Labour would win simply because the Tories don’t look at the highest point of their fortunes at the moment.

SR: And if there was to be an election who would you like to lead the Conservatives into that election? I know that you have spoken quite warmly about Boris Johnson in the past.

JACOB REES-MOGG: Yes, well the Prime Minister has said that she will stand down before a general election and that’s an important point to remember. She has also said she will stand down in the event of her deal going through and so I think it is now legitimate to be discussing the various abilities of the various potential candidates and you are quite right, I think very highly of Boris Johnson who managed to win in London twice in a Labour area, has a great connection with voters, is a clear Eurosceptic but otherwise is very much in the middle of the Conservative party, he’s not particularly a factional character beyond the European issue and therefore I think could unite the party and win elections but we are lucky, we have many other good candidates as well.

SR: Tell us about uniting the party, a lot of people have been talking up the possibility of what’s known as Bamber, a Boris Johnson/Amber Rudd dream ticket, is that something that you’d support?

JACOB REES-MOGG: [Laughs] Well I’ve always thought highly of Amber Rudd and she is a very long standing friend of my sister’s as it happens and a person of first class capabilities. I happen to disagree with her on the European issue and there will come a time, although we may find it difficult to believe at the moment, when there are other things to talk about than Europe and at that point we will need all the talents that are arrayed within the Tory party and not just those of Brexiteers.

SR: I can’t help thinking though that you’d be in a much better position if you did want to impose a leader on the Conservative party if Brexiters like yourself hadn’t moved too early to launch that confidence vote against Theresa May, the whole picture would be completely different, it gave her protection for a whole year back in December. I mean looking back with hindsight, did you botch it?

JACOB REES-MOGG: Well first of all can I quibble on the word impose because fortunately the new leader, when that time comes, will be voted for by the mass members of the Conservative party but the general thrust of your point - these things are always difficult to time. I think had we had a new leader in December we would not be in the position that we are in now, I think the blame for this muddle rest firmly on the Prime Minister’s shoulders. Would we have a better chance of doing it now? It’s very difficult, bear in mind two-thirds of backbenchers voted against the Prime Minister last time and the payroll is always likely to vote for the leader of the party otherwise members of the payroll ought to resign, so would we have a better chance now? It’s hard to know but what’s done is done, it’s no good crying over spilt milk.

SR: Okay, Jacob Rees-Mogg, thank you very much for being on the programme.

JACOB REES-MOGG: Thank you very much, thank you.