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SOPHY RIDGE: Labour’s Deputy Leader, Tom Watson, has today called for the party to back a second Brexit referendum or risk losing the next general election. Pressure on the leadership could grow further if the EU election results are as bad as some in the party fear. Well joining us now is the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, thank you very much for being with us this morning. I take it you’ve read Tom Watson’s piece today, he is calling for Labour to back unequivocally a second referendum, is it time to do that?

JOHN McDONNELL: I understand where Tom’s coming from and I think his expression of the sort of frustration he feels and many of our members feel, I understand that completely. We’ve had to take a hard road over the last period because we [ought?] to be a strong Remain party, the majority of our members are Remain and a lot of our support is as well but we couldn’t ignore the fact that 52% of the population, the electorate, voted Leave and we can’t turn our back on those people and that’s why we’ve tread a really difficult road of trying to bring people together, trying to get a negotiated settlement that would protect the economy and jobs with the Conservative government. That’s failed and clearly now we have to have another conversation and I think the next step for us now is bringing, well bringing the other opposition parties together for a discussion about where we go from here and yes, talking to a number of those Conservative MPs as well because as you’ve seen in the interviews that you’ve been doing, there is a real threat now of an extremist Brexiteer becoming the leader of the Conservative party and taking us over the edge, the cliff edge of a no deal, no matter what damage there is to jobs and the economy. So I think yes, we have to have that conversation, not just within the Parliamentary Labour party, amongst our members and supporters, but also with the other opposition parties as well and, as I say, with Conservative MPs too because we’ve got to move to block a no deal and move forward now. So yes, we now need to have that discussion about how we can prevent this damage to our economy.

SR: Don’t you need to do more than just have more talks, more discussions, don’t you need to come to a decision now because as you say, it’s one thing taking a relaxed long-term approach when you know pretty much that Theresa May could just ask for another extension but now the leading contenders are talking about leaving with no deal at the end of October, something you want to prevent.

JOHN McDONNELL: Yes.

SR: Isn’t it time for Labour to now decide, do we want to have another referendum?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well we’ve said already, we said to block a no deal we’ll work with anyone, we’ll work across parties …

SR: Shouldn’t you start doing that now?

JOHN McDONNELL: We are, that’s what we will do, we will bring people together now. We want to see the other opposition parties, we want to make sure we have that conversation within our own party and with some Conservative MPs who have said, like us, they will not vote for a no deal Brexit and yes, we’ve said that if necessary, let’s have a general election about this and if necessary, yes, let’s go back to the people again. We’ve said that and we’ve voted for that in the House of Commons but we are now in an equivocal situation. We could be in a situation where, like I say, an extremist Brexiteer takes over as the leader of the Tory party and no matter what the damage to jobs and the economy will try and force that through. So I think the world changed on Friday when Theresa May stood down, we’re facing a very, very precarious and dangerous situation for the future of our country and yes, I think the responsibility has gone up for all of those opposition parties to come together with us and some Conservative MPs to block a no deal and if that means going back to the people, yes, let’s go back to the people.

SR: So the world changed, has your own personal view shifted on whether or not a referendum is the right thing to do?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well we’ve always worked through what our conference policy was which was try to secure a deal if we can, block a no deal certainly, block a bad deal, try and secure a deal if we possibly can and then if we can’t do that, if we can’t get agreement on a cross-party and go through the House of Commons, then seek a general election or failing that, yes, go on back to the public and I think we’ve worked through those stages now. We need to bring… there’s a vacuum of leadership in this country now since Theresa May stood down, now’s the time I think, it’s the Labour party’s role now to demonstrate that leadership, bring the other opposition leaders together, talk through and get agreement on a way forward and if that does include going back to the people, then yes, let’s now have that discussion, consult our party members, consult the parliamentary party, consult the other opposition parties and let’s go forward. We’ve got to block a no deal, we cannot allow a Brexiteer extremist like Boris Johnson or any other candidates in this Grand National race that has been set off in the Tory party, to push us over the edge of a no deal. It will impact upon people’s livelihoods.

SR: We are going to be getting the European election results later on this evening, the Lib Dems are expected to do well, the Green party is expected to do well. In his piece today Tom Watson said ‘Our performance is a direct result of our mealy mouthed backing for a public vote on Brexit.’ Do you think in an increasingly polarised debate Labour is just falling through the middle here?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well I think we most probably will get a good kicking in the election results tonight. We’ll see, we’ll see, we’re braced for that but you know, we had to do the responsible thing. I know it was hard, it was difficult, it was a hard road to follow but someone had to be there and say can we bring the country back together again? It would have been easy to have gone to one side, to the Remain side, and to have ignored all those people who voted Leave – that’s not the nature of our party. We’re the party that is trying to bring people back together again. That’s been difficult electorally for us in these elections, of course it has, but now we have got to move on. The reality is as I said, on Friday when Theresa May stood down there was a dramatic change in the nature of our politics and we’re now faced with, well, Tory party candidates who literally just to get the job as Tory party leader are appealing to their members, as you have seen in the polls, a majority are pressing for a no deal no matter what the consequences for people’s jobs, their livelihoods and the future of our economy and our country. We can’t allow that to happen, we’ve got to move forward now, bring people together and block a no deal and if that means going back to the people, so be it.

SR: And then just finally, everyone of course was watching when Theresa May stood on the steps of Downing Street and announced her resignation, quite an emotional speech. Did you feel sorry for her?

JOHN McDONNELL: Yes, I said the other day in an interview, you would have to have had a heart of stone not to feel for her. I know others have commented and said I also feel for all the victims of her policies and I do too but yes, of course I did. Look, I wish her well for the future and she’s done her best but it hasn’t been good enough. We’ve got to move on now and part of that moving on isn’t just about Brexit, it’s addressing all that human suffering that has been inflicted by yes, Theresa May’s administration and the nine years of austerity that she supported. We had a UN rapporteur reporting over this last month about our children in hunger – the fifth biggest economy in the world and our children, some of whom are living in hunger; homelessness on a scale, 5000 people sleeping on our streets tonight; crime up, our social services now are stretched so far that they can’t provide the social care our elderly need. So yes, of course I had an element of personal concern and sympathy for her in that emotional period but I also had to look beyond that to the record of nine years of austerity and the brutal, the brutal way in which our people have been treated by this administration that she has either led or been a supporter of.

SR: Okay, John McDonnell, thank you very much for being on the programme this morning.