ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: So why have you come to Hastings?

JOHN McDONNELL: I’m doing a tour around the country, smaller town. I have been doing these regional economic conferences but largely in metropolitan areas, now we’re looking at smaller towns, coastal towns in particular, areas well politically actually that we should have won or came close or are marginal still but looking at the economic factors that are affecting those communities, and what we’re finding is people saying that their community has been held back economically, they are buzzing with ideas so what we are trying to do now is build our next manifesto from the grassroots up, saying to people what are the… I come along and say here are the basic statistics for your area that we know about, you tell me what it’s like for you and people are explaining how they’ve experienced the local economy, what the issues are and then I can ask them what do you think the policy should be. Here’s what we’re saying, are they relevant to this area or is there something more that we should be doing together? And then from that asking local community reps to come together and build a community prospectus or manifesto for this local area or that particular town. We are calling them town meetings because that’s what they are.

SR: You say areas that have been held back, I mean is it a bit patronising to view places like this as left behind?

JOHN McDONNELL: It’s the expression that people say to me. I don’t like the expression left behind but interestingly that’s the expression that people increasingly use. I prefer held back because that’s the other expression that …

SR: What’s holding them back?

JOHN McDONNELL: Lack of investment, lack of investment. In Hastings it’s the usual thing, road and rail, but also the new technology and the digital connection, that sort of thing. What they are saying is that unless we can tackle that basic infrastructure we’ll never be able to attract the high skilled, high paid jobs that we need.

SR: You sound very busy over the summer going to all these places, it is pretty clear that Labour is on some kind of election footing, I mean how confident are you that there will be an early election?

JOHN McDONNELL: I’m a natural pessimist on these things. I want an election as soon as possible but I’m a natural pessimist, I think there’ll be a long haul but we’ve got to be prepared for a short or long haul. I can’t tell anymore, I think things have moved on so dramatically. I’ve thought that the Tories will cling on to office for as long as they possibly can. I don't think they’re in power, I think they are clinging on to office but they are in such disarray and we’ve seen it over the last couple of weeks. We don’t know from day to day, well from hour to hour we don’t know which faction of the Conservative party is in control at any minute so they seem to be imploding rapidly. Our worry is the longer they are in office, the more damage they’ll do.

SR: Is it true that you have been talking to Gordon Brown and getting a bit of advice from him?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well Jeremy met Gordon Brown and John Trickett, who is responsible for our preparation for government, has been in contact with Gordon Brown regularly. I was supposed to meet Gordon the other week but he couldn’t make it but what they’ve been doing is talking to ex-Ministers and ex-civil servants. I’ve asked Bob Kerslake who is the Head of the Civil Service, he’s been advising me and I’ve been bringing our Shadow Treasury team together on a fortnightly basis, he’s brought a team of ex-Treasury civil servants and others together to give us advice on how do you develop policies, yes, but how do you implement them in government as well.

SR: So what’s Gordon Brown’s advice then, I’m interested?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well Gordon had a long session with Jeremy and his main lesson is prepare before you go into government, make sure you are testing the policies in advance and make sure they are pragmatic and practical. Now that’s exactly what we’re doing. Take the last manifesto, we’re taking the policies in the last manifesto, John Trickett is leading on this for us, transforming that into implementation manuals for each policy and then also drafting the legislation and we’re going through that in detail but of course what we want to do is talk to people who have been there before – is this the right way about it, do you think this will work and then if there’s a policy that isn’t going to work in the way we’d intended then we’ll amend it and make sure it’s effective.

SR: I wonder, you say that you want an election but at the same time if there was to be an election right now, you would just be given the headache that is Brexit and let’s be honest, you might have to come up with a bit more of a solid position when it comes to Brexit, you can’t just have vague promises of a jobs first Brexit.

JOHN McDONNELL: What do you mean, let’s be honest? We’ve been honest all the way along. We’ve said let’s go through the history of the last eighteen months or so, we said, we were the first ones to say it, we need a transition period, as long as necessary, as short as possible. That’s exactly what we’ve been saying to our European partners. The government now has had to come up with at least what they call an implementation period, goodness knows what they mean by that, but we know there will be a period of transition. Secondly, we said a customs union. I can’t think of any other way of solving the Northern Ireland border, the government has come up with all these different arrangements that can’t sustain a majority within its own party, we’ve got a commitment to a customs union. We are now, the big debate now is our relationship to the internal market and that’s why we want to talk to our European partners to negotiate that but the whole point we’ve been making – and I think I’ve made it on your programme before, in my past life I was Chief Exec of the Local Government Association, I had an office in Brussels, I managed European funds for London overall. When you negotiate in Brussels you negotiate on the basis of mutual interest and mutual respect. What you don’t do is bang the table, threaten to walk away, that isn’t the style. We would change the whole atmosphere of the negotiations and as a result of that we would get, well, something that protects jobs and the economy here but also in Europe as well because we’ve got a joint interest about securing the economic benefits of our trading partnership.

SR: I was quite interested to hear the early part of your answer when you were talking about the government effectively, you would argue, following your lead on things like the transition period.

JOHN McDONNELL: Not particularly well, but they are using the words but not the implementation.

SR: Because I wonder what the major difference is now between your position on Brexit and the government’s Chequers plan because as far as I can tell it’s a difference of emphasis rather than a big difference, a difference so big that you’d be prepared to vote against the government and risk a no-deal as a result.

JOHN McDONNELL: A customs union, they will not accept a customs union.

SR: But at the same time the government is saying they want to follow EU regulations on goods, that they don’t want tariffs, that they don’t want a hard border in Northern Ireland …

JOHN McDONNELL: Why don’t they just say they’ll accept a customs union? They’re not because that’s ….

SR: But that’s simply a change of …

JOHN McDONNELL: No, no, I disagree entirely. I don't think they fully appreciate the need for a customs union because they are held to ransom largely by the DUP.

SR: But if they are still willing, if they like you are saying they will follow EU regulations on goods, that they will accept …

JOHN McDONNELL: But they can’t carry that in their own party.

SR: But they would be able to if they [inaudible] wouldn’t they?

JOHN McDONNELL: They can’t carry that in their own party because the DUP … they haven’t committed themselves to a customs union the way we have. The language they might be edging towards but they are nowhere near at the moment.

SR: So what is the one major difference that you have a problem with?

JOHN McDONNELL: That would not give us the tariff free access that we need.

SR: Theresa May has categorically ruled out a second referendum under any circumstances, will you do the same?

JOHN McDONNELL: What we have said is that we are not averse to any form of democratic engagement but our view is that that’s not our policy to have another referendum, we respect the existing one. Our preference is a general election but we’ve not ruled anything out but our preference is a general election because then you discuss the issues, not just Brexit but other issues but also you determine the team that will be negotiating.

SR: It is interesting that you are clearly saying that nothing is off the table even though it’s not your policy but if you talk to people in places like Hastings, people who voted for Brexit, they are worried about the betrayal, they are worried about the …

JOHN McDONNELL: And that’s why we are saying clearly that we accept the referendum result, we accept the referendum result.

SR: So why don’t you rule out a second referendum?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well we are saying it is not our policy, full stop, that is not our policy however we want a general election, that’s what we want.

SR: We have to talk about anti-Semitism, I’ve spoken to you about it before but with the current row over Labour’s new definition of anti-Semitism for disciplinary proceedings, many people in the Jewish community are very unhappy with what has happened so my question to you is, why do you think that the Chief Rabbi, that 68 rabbis have united to condemn it, that the Board of Deputies, that Jewish Labour MPs like Margaret Hodge and Luciana Berger, they are all wrong and you are right.

JOHN McDONNELL: We are not posing it in that way, we are simply saying here’s a definition, we have adopted the definition so then there’s a debate over the examples that you can then use when you interpret that definition and we feel that what we’ve put forward is actually stronger than what was in the past but we said we understand that people have different views, there are different views within the Jewish community, I’ve had views expressed both ways so we’ve said we’ll review it. We’ll engage in that conversation and that’s what will happen.

SR: Because even if you are confident in the definition, that you think it’s robust, why would you pit yourself against all these people? Why is this a hill that you’re willing to die on? Isn’t it easier just to say we’ll keep the internationally recognised definition?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well we’ve said that, we’ve accepted the definition, we’ve accepted that, that’s in the body of our statement that we put out but then you look at the examples and we’ve had different views on the examples and we’ve said we believe that what we’ve drafted up of how you interpret that definition is actually stronger than what’s gone on before.

SR: But it looks bad doesn’t it to have this row?

JOHN McDONNELL: And we’ve also said if there’s a disagreement on that and we’ve had views on both sides, we’ve had views on both sides, we’ll review that and we’ll engage with all those groups to arrive at something that we think will be effective but will have common standard and common support so we are going through a process, another dialogue on that and that’ll happen. My view actually is let’s get on with the job, let’s get started debating this and let’s get using what we’ve got to root out anti-Semitism wherever it is and that includes, if it’s in our own party, let’s get on with rooting it out.

SR: But you must be frustrated we’re talking about this again.

JOHN McDONNELL: Well yes, I am, of course I am but we’ve got to get it right and we’ve got to listen to people, we’ve got to listen people who … and this is a debate that’s going on within the Jewish community so we’ve got to listen to all sides and as a result of that I think we’ll arrive at the best position.

SR: Are you comfortable with the idea that Margaret Hodge, someone whose family was killed in the Holocaust, is being disciplined for calling Jeremy Corbyn anti-Semitic? It looks as if she is actually facing swifter and stronger action than people who are Labour members who are anti-Semitic are.

JOHN McDONNELL: Well I hope not. What seems to have happened is that she has got into a contretemps, let’s put it no stronger than that. Someone has made a complaint so that’s being investigated. My view is let’s resolve this very, very quickly, almost drop the complaint and let’s move on or if someone wants their complaint investigated let’s get that done quickly. I’ve worked with Margaret over the years, I was the Chief Exec of an organisation that she was chair of for over ten years, she’s got a good heart. Sometimes you can express anger, I’m one of these people who has in the past, and basically you have to accept that, you have to accept sometimes people can be quite heated in their expressions. Let’s understand that and let’s just move on.

SR: Now I do also want to ask you about the pairing row that’s been happening in parliament this week, the Conservative whips breaking a pair with an MP on maternity leave in that crucial Brexit vote. Do you think the Chief Whip needs to go?

JOHN McDONNELL: Yes, I think so. I don’t say that lightly, I think so, yes. Theresa May at Prime Minister’s Questions said oh this was done in error etc, we now know there were instructions given about breaking the whip to people, I don't think it’s acceptable that. In parliament you have to have certain democratic standards and once you start breaking the rules in that way, the operation of the institution itself comes into doubt. We need reform as well, we need complete reform. Naz Shah, one of our MPs, was dragged into the Chamber in a wheelchair holding a sick bowl, being ill at the same time. We’ve had people on maternity leave who again, because of the breaking of the system, lost their ability to vote or at least neutralise the loss of the vote and that’s not acceptable.

SR: And what about Brandon Lewis, the Conservative Party Chairman, who was the MP who …

JOHN McDONNELL: Well I find it very difficult to believe that this was in error because there were seven votes. Why is it on this particular vote suddenly he makes an error? I think he has a lot to answer for, I really do.

SR: Should he resign?

JOHN McDONNELL: I think he should go but both of them now need to come clean. We’ve heard from other Tory MPs that clearly instructions were being given about breaking the whip and the anger – and I pay tribute to this, the anger about this issue is as much on Conservative benches as it is on Labour benches and the Liberal benches as well. That sends a message to individual MPs that actually their behaviour is unacceptable.

SR: Can you categorically say that Labour has never broken a pair since Jeremy Corbyn was leader?

JOHN McDONNELL: As far as I am aware, yes, as far as I’m aware. I’m not in the whips office or anything like that but as far as I’m aware, yes, that’s true but we’ve also been the party that’s been campaigning for reform. Harriet Harman was standing up in Parliament last week saying we’ve got to have a proxy system of voting so you don’t have … she had one of our members who is also expecting beside her and she said here’s an example, this woman will not be able to exercise her democratic rights unless we reform this.

SR: Joh McDonnell, thank you very much.

JOHN McDONNELL: Thanks a lot.