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SOPHY RIDGE: Well as Parliament desperately tries to find a majority for something or anything, what Labour does next on Brexit could be crucial. Joining us now is the Shadow Cabinet Office Minister, Jon Trickett. Thank you very much for being with us. You just heard our interview with the Chancellor Philip Hammond, the newspapers are full of stories about potential coups against Theresa May, is this the week that Labour will be calling a conference motion?

JON TRICKETT: Well look, let’s take it one step at a time. I mean that interview that you had was extraordinary I thought, the Chancellor is signalling that the deal that they have worked on for nearly three years is dead. He also jumped the idea of no-deal and yet Mrs May has held on to that from the beginning, I mean it is a government in which the country can have no confidence but the main thing is, as he said and he is right, we are on the edge of a catastrophe. We have to find a way through this quickly and that is why Labour tomorrow is putting down its resolution suggesting that we have negotiations, Jeremy Corbyn meeting people to see if there is a way forward for Parliament and for the country.

SR: I know that some people, some Conservatives, will be shouting at the screen listening to you say that, if we are on the edge of a precipice here as you say why doesn’t Labour back a deal then? That’s the way forward isn’t it?

JON TRICKETT: Look, the deal is not acceptable for Parliament and it is not popular at all in the country …

SR: So why not?

JON TRICKETT: And there are obvious reasons why, the most obvious one is the problem with the land border in Ireland.

SR: The backstop would be in Labour’s proposals wouldn’t it?

JON TRICKETT: The difference with our proposal and their proposal is that we would not have a border at any time in Ireland because we’d be part of a long term customs union negotiated by us with the European Union.

SR: But the deal has a customs union in it as well doesn’t it?

JON TRICKETT: No, not in the way that we envisage it which is a common customs union expressly tailor made for Britain which would mean that there wouldn’t be a necessity for a land border in Ireland and that’s where the problem is.

SR: That is the backstop isn’t it?

JON TRICKETT: The backstop is different in the sense that the backstop that the government has negotiated we cannot get out of, we are handing over our sovereignty to the European Union, there is no unilateral way out of this for the country.

SR: But that’s good for Labour isn’t it, if you want a permanent customs union?

JON TRICKETT: We want a customs union tailor made for us which will deliver proper jobs, regional development and a way forward out of this crisis which protects jobs and also respects the Good Friday Agreement in Ireland. That is a very important achievement for our country in the last thirty years, we don’t want to jeopardise it now. The Chancellor himself was sitting here in this very seat a few moments ago more or less dropping the deal, we have proposed an alternative set of arrangements, we think it’s a reasonable way forward but we are happy to negotiate with others and Jeremy Corbyn is now leading the conversations to try to find a consensus.

SR: The Chancellor also didn’t rule out the idea of a second referendum if it meant for example Theresa May’s deal passing and then having a public vote to see if that would be acceptable to the public. There were a million people marching yesterday in support of a second referendum, why wasn’t Jeremy Corbyn there?

JON TRICKETT: Well he was out campaigning in Morecambe actually where the cockle pickers died and what the country wants to talk about, for instance crime, there are 20,000 less police officers on the streets and there is great anxiety about the state of the country apart from Brexit and Jeremy ….

SR: But I thought it was your policy to have a second referendum?

JON TRICKETT: Jeremy is out there leading the country, discussing austerity and all the other things that matter. I was in London yesterday, I was in a meeting but I took a bit of time, I had conversations with people on the march and what was interesting was there was passion, there was enthusiasm but above all there was fear that this government is simply lost and it is leading the country down a blind alley into a very, very dangerous moment. That was the overwhelming impression I had. It was a lovely crowd but the job of an alternative government is to try to find a way of bringing all the sides together in our country, rather than dividing it in the way that the government has, on a Brexit but a Brexit that works for everybody.

SR: I am interested to know your own views on a second referendum. We spoke about it the last time that you were on the programme, we can have a quick look at what you told us back then, you said ‘If people feel that a privileged political elite has decided to find a way of reversing the previous referendum that would cause us some difficulty and rightly so.’ Is that still what you think?

JON TRICKETT: It is what I think and from the beginning there were some people who right from the beginning didn’t accept the result of the referendum, they wanted to remain, they wanted to find a way of really reversing the referendum, the original referendum. That isn’t Labour’s position, our position is that we have accepted the result of the referendum but we think we are now getting closer and closer to a precipice and what we said is, if we arrive at a position where it is necessary to prevent either a crash out deal or a dreadful Tory deal, then at that point we will [see/cede?] to have a second referendum and by the way…

SR: Are you happy with that?

JON TRICKETT: I am. Look, I voted for it, Labour put down a resolution I think it was in January that included a vote and, by the way, tomorrow we have another amendment which also includes a second referendum but …

SR: How would you vote if there was a second referendum?

JON TRICKETT: Sorry?

SR: How would you vote if there was a second referendum?

JON TRICKETT: I’d vote to remain and reform but we’d have to see what other options were on the table and the truth is we are somewhere away from making that decision. Look, we can spend a lot of time discussing process, how will we arrive at a decision, actually we should be discussing content and the content is a deal which can work, which will deliver jobs and a more prosperous country and we need to reverse austerity and the problems which our country is facing.

SR: Okay, well let’s talk about the content shall we because we just heard from the Chancellor that the House of Commons will have an opportunity to express its view and try and find a majority on something next week potentially through a series of what’s become known as a series of indicative votes. So would you vote for the Prime Minister’s deal plus a customs union as a compromise?

JON TRICKETT: No. That view simply doesn’t work and the main problem we have is we have got a long term relationship and a backstop from which there is no exit.

SR: But the backstop is the customs union.

JON TRICKETT: The backstop is a customs union but there is no way out of it into a permanent relationship. We could be locked forever into a situation which is something short of what the people voted for and therefore we don’t think that would work. Look, we’ve made a proposal, it’s got five aspects to it and we are putting it down tomorrow night but equally our resolution tomorrow in front of the House of Commons suggests that there is a number of options which the House should consider and I see the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying actually that’s where he thinks we are going to end up. Look, the point is Mrs May doesn’t have the political skills of negotiation and persuasion and charm which is needed to win the majority of a House where she doesn’t have a majority herself and Jeremy is putting himself in that position, gradually emerging as a national leader, negotiating with Tories and Liberals and other parties, trying to find a way out of the mess we have been led into.

SR: Do you think with a different leader of the Conservative party it would make it easier for Labour?

JON TRICKETT: I think whatever happens is entirely up to the Tory party, they got us into this mess. Remember it was Cameron, Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne, that had the referendum in the first place and tried to bully the country into a particular decision. Look, the Cabinet has made a mess of this, we need a general election, that’s the kind of people’s vote we want.

SR: It doesn’t sound like someone about to do a deal with the Conservatives.

JON TRICKETT: We want to get a consensus in the whole country. Part of the problem is a government which has lost its way.

SR: Okay, Jon Trickett, thank you very much.

JON TRICKETT: Thank you.