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SOPHY RIDGE: Whoever walks through the door of Number 10 this week will be walking straight into a diplomatic storm. The hijacking of the UK flagged tanker was, according to the Defence Secretary, a hostile act committed by the Iranian regime. Well Iran has hit back demanding the UK stops being an accessory to what it describes as the ‘economic terrorism of the US’. Joining us now is the Defence Minister, Tobias Ellwood. Thank you very much for being on the programme today. So how will the UK respond to what we’re seeing in Iran?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: Well firstly we need to try and de-escalate this. There has been a ratcheting up of tensions in the Middle East, not least what’s happened with the Montrose engagement only a week ago, we have seen Norwegian and Japanese tankers already hit a couple of weeks ago as well and as you implied, this is actually forming part of a wider geo-political challenge that Iran is facing with the West. So our first and most important responsibility is to make sure that we get a solution to the issue to do with the current ship, make sure other British flagged ships are safe to operate in these waters and then look at the wider picture of actually having a working proper professional relationship with Iran. But this is a hostile act, let’s not dodge away from, this is a serious matter which Iran must recognise.

SR: You talk about de-escalating tensions, does that mean sanctions and things like that are off the table?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: Well this only took place yesterday so we are looking at the operational responsibilities from that but yes, we are looking at a series of options but let’s also make it clear that these are international waters that we’re speaking about, the critical geo-strategic pinch point in the world, and we are committed to do our role on the international stage to keep these waterways open and therefore we need an international solution so we’ll be working, speaking with our colleagues, our international allies to see what can actually be done.

SR: You are talking about how critical these waters are, with that in mind, knowing how volatile the Iranian regime is, why weren’t these ships protected?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: Well we have a number of vessels, three or four vessels going through a hundred nautical miles of waterway every single day, it’s not just us but the international community is there as well. It is impossible simply to escort each individual vessel.

SR: But it has been talked for example that it’s the scheme of the US to try and guard vessels through the Strait of Hormuz so why not …?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: Yes and that’s actually what’s happened but let’s place into context, this has been a sudden spike in activity, in threat, that’s ratcheted up in the last few weeks itself and naturally it takes time to respond there. We are sending an additional Type 45 destroyer there, there’s also an RFA support ship that’s come in so we can actually replenish at sea We are absolutely committed to providing a military presence in the Middle East and in keeping these straits open.

SR: Well let’s just have a look at what Julian Lewis, the Chair of the Defence Select Committee, has said. He said this: “It was blindingly obvious that British flagged vessels should not have been allowed to navigate this waterway unaccompanied.” Have we taken our eye off the ball a bit?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: No, not at all and again I have huge respect for the Chairman of the Defence Select Committee but as I say, a hundred nautical miles of waterway, the number of ships, British flagged ships or international ships that are going through there, we look after our British flagged ships all over the world. We have our shipping interest right across the globe and when a threat spikes such as this, yes, we move more assets into the area but we can’t simply, as the tanker wars in 1980 showed, we cannot simply escort each individual ship. That is not a long-term solution to this, we need to recognise that there is a threat, we do need to provide solutions that allow shipping to continue but ultimately we need to focus on what is causing this, the geo-political stress that Iran is actually engaging with. Only until that is solved will we actually see some form of stability in that area.

SR: It can’t have helped, can it, that the Foreign Secretary is currently taking part in a leadership contest.

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: We can’t deny that that is our democratic process. I won’t shy away from the fact that the threat has increased now, we are responding to it, we are sending assets to the region but ultimately we …

SR: Is Iran taking …

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: Well let me just finish this point because it is an important one to make. If we want to continue playing a role on the international stage, bearing in mind that threats are changing, all happening just beneath the threshold of all-out war, then we must invest more in our defence including our Royal Navy. Our Royal Navy is too small to manage our interests across the globe if that’s our future intentions and that’s something the next Prime Minister will need to recognise.

SR: Now you served in Iran when you were in the Army, you have visited Iran as Middle East Minister, how dangerous are they?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: I didn’t serve in Iran but I did visit as Foreign Minister and it is very interesting to see the people are desperate for a better relationship with the international community so our argument is with the regime itself, with what they’re doing, not just in this particular area of thwarting international business in the shipping lanes but also its proxy negative influence in Syria, in the civil war in Yemen, in Iraq, in Bahrain, in Lebanon as well, these are unhelpful interventions, these aren’t the acts of a nation that really should be trying to join the international community for the benefit of all. What they are doing here is they are on the receiving end of changes in sanctions from the United States and they are lashing back out, probably to affect the oil price.

SR: Are you worried that the US and Iran could be heading for a major conflict?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: I think everybody is worried about that, which is why the Foreign Secretary, the Defence Secretary as well, is wanting to make sure that we de-escalate. We have seen, as I say, a ratcheting up the last three weeks of events and tensions in the Straits of Hormuz and with Iran as a whole. We need to make sure that we thwart this, go back to the bigger picture of the relationship with Iran and make sure that we protect our international shipping.

SR: I just want to show you a tweet that Jeremy Corbyn sent yesterday and the leader of the Labour party said this: “The UK tanker under Iranian control and its crew must be released. Escalation risks a deeper conflict, all sides must show restraint. Trump tearing up the Iran nuclear deal has fuelled confrontation. It’s negotiated reinstatement is essential to defuse the threat of war in the Gulf.” Is he right that Donald Trump has fuelled the confrontation?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: Well firstly I am pleased to see that finally the opposition leader is supporting our armed forces in some way, they actually want to remove us from NATO, they’d reduce our armed forces capability and remove the nuclear deterrent so the fact that he is now coming in support and recognising this important thing. But there is a concern that we have a difference of opinion with the United States on the nuclear deal itself. France, Germany and ourselves believe that this has paid dividends, it has actually prevented nuclear weapons being developed in Iran. Unfortunately they are now going back to their uranium enrichment programme because of what the Americans have done and we can’t deny that this operational, this tactical threat and escalation of issues in the Straits of Hormuz factors in to this bigger picture.

SR: We’ve been dragged into an issue that is really between the US and Iran.

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: I don't think we’ve been dragged into. This is the international community which must stand firm in supporting international norms and that is exactly why this is being treated as a hostile act and probably in response to Grace One, which is the Iranian ship that was seized off Gibraltar. That was because it was breaching international and EU sanctions in wanting to supply oil to Syria. Now Iran can’t have it both ways, it can’t pretend to want to join the international community but then just flout international sanctions but then get angry with us when we actually seize a ship because of that.

SR: Okay, now while I’ve got you. We may have a new, well we will have a new Prime Minister in two days’ time which looks likely to be Boris Johnson. Bearing in mind that you think no deal will be a bad thing for the UK, could you serve in his Cabinet?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: Well I really get frustrated with this energy towards no deal. I know all my parliamentary colleagues on all sides of the house recognise the dangers of no deal, the fact that we keep talking about it. It isn’t a solution, I’m very concerned and I really encourage …

SR: Would you serve in a Boris Johnson government?

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: No, I’m going to make it very, very clear, I want us to move away from discussing about no deal at all. I believe a deal is absolutely possible. The fact that we keep talking about no deal fuels the small caucus of people who see that as their destination. No deal is not a destination. You run away from the EU and say fine, we don’t want to have a deal, we’ll still have to crawl back literally moments later and say, well how is our financial services going to operate, how are our operations with the police going to work, how are citizens’ rights going to work? How are we going to respond when we’ve just run the other way and then come crawling back to the table. No deal is a distraction from where I want the Prime Minister to focus which is getting a deal and we can achieve that.

SR: So if you think about no deal could you say that Boris Johnson is …

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: Well you are almost making my point for me. All these if you or whatever’s, I don’t even want to go down that direction, I want to …

SR: But you might have to make a decision about it next week.

TOBIAS ELLWOOD: I’ll make a decision about that when that actually comes, what I am so worried about is that we now know more about no deal than we do about seeking solutions for a deal. We were able to land a man on the moon fifty years ago but we can’t sort out the Northern Ireland backstop. We can, there is a will in Parliament. If we don’t do that then Parliament, the Conservative party could be destined to be in opposition for an awful long time and that’s the danger that I hope every one of my colleagues will wake up to and of course the next Prime Minister too.

SR: Okay, Tobias Ellwood, thank you very much for coming on the programme this morning.