ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: Now you could be forgiven for being a bit tired of hearing about the Irish border. The reason why they are talking about it so much is that it’s the big obstacle holding up a Brexit deal so with the Irish problem central to the talks, let’s now talk to the Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, Tony Lloyd, who’s in Salford, thank you for being with us today.

TONY LLOYD: You’re welcome, Sophy, nice to speak to you.

SR: Now yesterday we saw around 700,000 people march in favour of a second referendum. Of course I know that Labour’s position is that you’d like to see an election but with the prospect of no deal rising, something that would really impact people where you are now in Salford, would you prefer to see a second referendum if it’s a way of avoiding no deal?

TONY LLOYD: I think what Labour’s made very clear is the first thing we’ve got to have is something that the government is resisting, which is a meaningful vote in our national Parliament and that’s really important because we can’t simply have a rigged vote that says it’s Theresa May’s bad deal or no deal, even if Theresa May is actually able to negotiate that deal. We’ve got to have the capacity for Parliament to say that there is a choice round the national interest, not the political interest, of a divided Conservative party but what we have said, clearly we’d sooner there was a general election, we need a government quite frankly that has got a commonality of purpose, not the present government which is relying on the splits in the Conservative party to be cobbled over. We have said though that in the end we are not ruling any option out, if that’s the way of breaking the deadlock. We can’t force a general election, the parliamentary mathematics say that, what we can do is to insist though that there is proper debate around the real choices that this country faces and that’s at the moment what the government are resisting.

SR: You can see some people might think that by saying you are not ruling anything out, you are effectively sitting on the fence. I know you are more comfortable talking about meaningful votes or the need for elections, but if there was a second referendum how would you vote? Would you vote Remain or Leave?

TONY LLOYD: Well we’re not there are we? We really aren’t there and what Labour has said is that we want to honour the referendum on Brexit, we want to negotiate the Brexit deal that’s in the national interest and yes of course, that’s the border across Ireland. It’s also making sure that we don’t have a hard border down the Irish Sea, it’s making sure to be quite honest that we don’t have a hard border around a northern town like Rochdale that I represent in Parliament because what really is important is that we see what is the national and economic and political interest put ahead of the factions within the Conservative party, so we are a long way from consideration around the referendum. It’s great to see people demonstrating in our society legitimately always of course, we’re a free society and we ought to respect and value that but in the end, as the political party, we have got to give the public the legitimate choice and that’s through parliamentary democracy, it is the meaningful vote that’s got to be the next step.

SR: Okay, now Ireland of course is front and centre of the Brexit negotiations. This week the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said ‘I’m a republican, I long for a united Ireland but I recognise democracy’, so as the Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, what’s your view? Do you long for a united Ireland?

TONY LLOYD: I long for respect for the Good Friday Agreement and in actual fact that’s what John McDonnell said. John, like everybody in the Labour party, is…

SR: Well he said what I read out.

TONY LLOYD: He did indeed but John did say that he respected the Good Friday Agreement. The Good Friday Agreement was Labour’s creation, we’re not going to run away from that, that’s really important because it’s important actually now in the context of the debate on the Irish border. The reason we can’t have a hard Irish border is because it would do potentially massive damage to what the Good Friday Agreement achieved which was peace after so many years of bloodshed and conflict but we’re equally clear that there can be no constitutional change to the position of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom, unless that’s the choice of the people in Northern Ireland and of course in the rest of Ireland. We can’t allow Brexit to do damage to the Good Friday Agreement, the price would simply be too high. Now that’s really not just my opinion, when I quote, as I do, the Chief Constable George Hamilton, of the Northern Irish Police Service, who said that any hard border would give the potential targets for those who would do us harm. When he goes on to make the point that that puts people at risk, then we have got to take the idea of no harder border not simply as a matter of political rhetoric, it really is about not going back on the Good Friday Agreement and the peace process.

SR: Okay. Now moving on to a few other issues, Universal Credit is something that we have been covering extensively on the show and I was hoping you might be able to clear up for me what Labour’s position is on it because I know originally it was pause and fix, then the Shadow Chancellor came on the show and said he thought the system was broken and should be scrapped and then last week Shami Chakrabarti seemed to say that actually it was just about looking at the structure in the main of Universal Credit rather than scrapping the whole thing. So what is Labour’s position? Are you saying that you should just have another look at Universal Credit or are you saying that actually the whole thing should be scrapped?

TONY LLOYD: No, well first of all I am delighted that you and Sky have been covering Universal Credit because what’s happening to people in towns like my own is really an absolute disgrace. We’re pauperising people who are already struggling. These aren’t the workshy and the lazy, these are people who very often are working families but are struggling and need that little bit of help and having the rug pulled from underneath their feet. So within that what I think we’re very clear on is the fact that Universal Credit as is simply cannot do the job. What Labour will do in government and I hope we are in government soon enough to implement this, is to say we need a root and branch review now of social security reform. It will be things for example like Labour’s commitment to bring in a meaningful living wage because that does change the context in which the benefit system operates but Universal Credit as is …

SR: So you might keep it and reform it?

TONY LLOYD: Universal Credit as is, is simply not fit for purpose so as part of that reform Universal Credit as is simply can’t be allowed to stay.

SR: Okay, now I also want to talk to you about the really horrific child grooming cases that we’ve seen, 16 men jailed this week in Huddersfield and I’m interested to talk to you about it because you of course were previously the Greater Manchester Police and Crime Commissioner and there was of course this abuse ring in Rochdale as well. Now yesterday Sky News spoke to one of the victims in Huddersfield who said she believed that this is still going on. With your experience do you think it is still going on? Would it surprise you?

TONY LLOYD: Well it is very hard to say it’s not going on quite honestly but what we do have to give is a signal from every public agency and everywhere else that in our society we won’t tolerate this type of outrageous criminality. Sexual abuse of young people changes their lives and may change their lives forever. I’ve met victims over the years of sexual abuse and you can see the damage even many years on that it does so there can be no compromise. There can’t anymore be any acceptance by public institutions that there is a tolerance that probably did exist in the past. One of the things that I’m actually proud of that we did in Greater Manchester following on from the position in Rochdale was to insist that there is a very different way now of dealing with sexual abuse of young people and that involves every public agency working together and not working separately, it makes a big difference because it’s about bringing together those little bits of intelligence that maybe the police have, maybe a school has, maybe the health service has but when you see them put together it gives a bigger picture and allows us to challenge the perpetrators and protect the vulnerable. I can never say to anybody that no child will be sexually abused but what I can say is that we have got to make sure that all our public agencies will stamp down with absolute determination and see this as one of the top priorities for protecting our vulnerable young people.

SR: Okay, Tony Lloyd, thank you.