ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON

NIALL PATERSON: Joining me now as you can see, the Home Secretary Amber Rudd, a very good morning.

AMBER RUDD: Good morning.

NP: You won’t be surprised to hear, I wonder if we can dwell on the conduct of some of your colleagues first. The first that strikes me as something we need to discuss is Stephen Crabb, is he someone who should no longer be in parliament?

AMBER RUDD: Well there is something going on across both parties affecting MPs and even Ministers and there are a number of inquiries going on and I think we should let those take place. What is good about this is it is going to lead to fundamental change, what this is about is the abuse of power, it needs to end and I hope the Westminster workplace can make the changes that so many other workplaces have made so that men and women can continue to work together with respect.

NP: Well we certainly didn’t know when he resigned from his Cabinet position what we know now. A 19 year old applied to work in his office, he then sent her sexually explicit text messages – I am saying it out loud and I can’t quite believe it.

AMBER RUDD: Well allegations have been made, some MPs – and Stephen is one of them – are having that matter looked into. I think we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions until it has been …

NP: But he himself has conceded they were sexual nature, he sent them to someone who applied for a job in his office. Prima facie, that’s not something that an MP should be doing.

AMBER RUDD: Absolutely it isn’t but it is up to the Prime Minister and the procedures that are put in place to decide what sort of action is taken following that.

NP: But there are times when the title Right Honourable becomes something of a hollow joke and this is one of them. I can’t think of any other profession where if you invite someone in for a job and then were to send them texts, you’d remain in your post. Why is he still an MP?

AMBER RUDD: Really? Really you can’t think of any other profession? You don’t think this has been going on across different workplaces across the country, internationally? This is a watershed moment in Westminster …

NP: You don’t hold yourself to higher standards than people who work in a call centre?

AMBER RUDD: We do, I’m just … it’s not just a call centre, I’m just picking you up on the fact that this isn’t unique to Westminster. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard and I want us to do that, which is why we’re going to be making changes but this isn’t just unique to Westminster, this is about a fundamental change in the way power and authority is exercised. We will be making those changes and we want other people to make them too.

NP: I mean we heard a similar argument earlier on from the Shadow Foreign Secretary that this is not a problem that is confined to parliament and demonstrably that’s true but it does seem, when there is such a focus on the activities of parliamentarians or party members, a bit of buck passing to suggest actually do you know what, this is a societal problem, we’re as guilty of it as anyone else but we need to heal all of society rather than put our own house in order.

AMBER RUDD: In no way is anybody trying to pass the buck. This is incredibly important and the fact that it is taking place at Westminster is shocking and it is even more important that it changes there but I think it needs to be admitted that the buck is wider than just Westminster. It’s not unique to us but that doesn’t mean it’s not important, it is absolutely essential that we make the changes.

NP: Okay, another individual that I think we need to talk about is Michael Fallon. Now the initial accusation that was made against him seems to have morphed in some people’s minds to it was a bit of a touch of a knee, actually what happened according to Julia Hartley Brewer is that he in a sexual manner groped her leg a number of times to the extent that she felt the need to tell him, ‘Get your hands off me or I’m going to punch you’. Why is he still an MP?

AMBER RUDD: Michael Fallon has made a statement and he has resigned from his position as Minister. I think he has made it absolutely clear what his view is and I think it’s right that he resigned.

NP: But he didn’t resign from his job, he stepped down from the post of Defence Secretary. His job is Member of Parliament. Again I get the impression that we are supposed to look up to our politicians and every time we do we see something pretty disgusting and in fact he didn’t resign over the Julia Hartley Brewer accusations as we now know, Anna Soubry this morning confirming that it was because of the accusation made by Jane Merrick, a junior political correspondent at the time, that after a lunch with her when she was just doing her job, he lunged at her. That’s disgusting.

AMBER RUDD: I agree, completely disgusting, absolutely wrong and it was right that he has stepped down. He has made his statement about what he believes was the right thing to do and as a result of that and other disclosed situations, allegations, some of which are turning out to be correct, some of which we don’t know, there will be full change at Westminster.

NP: Not at his office, not in his parliamentary office, he still stays there. You mentioned the kind of confessional that he gave to the media, actually in that he appeared to suggest these events took place 10, 15 years ago, it was a different time. It wasn’t, it wasn’t a different time was it?

AMBER RUDD: No, I completely agree that the sort of behaviour that he talked about, that we have been talking about, is unacceptable now and in my opinion it was unacceptable 30 years ago but what we are doing now is making changes to make sure that we change not just the regulations, not just the sources of how people can appeal but the culture and the way you change the culture is to have more women in office as well. These things take place where you have a place which is completely male dominated and when Parliament used to be like that, like perhaps trading floors in the City, then you have that sort of abuse. That needs to change.

NP: But it strikes me again we have someone where there is a prima facie case, he should not be a Member of Parliament. If a male journalist having had lunch with you, lunged at you, he’d be out of a job immediately, his feet wouldn’t touch the floor so why is there one rule for a politician and one rule for a journalist?

AMBER RUDD: I just don’t accept that. I don’t accept that …

NP: You don’t accept that if I took you out for lunch and I …

AMBER RUDD: Do you know what, we are going to take me and you out of this particular picture. Workplaces have proper sources for people to go to, proper procedures, that’s what they need to do. Parliament hasn’t had these proper procedures in place yet, it needs to, those are the changes we’re making, not before time I agree with that. It feels like parliament has been slow to put that in place, that’s why it is so important that we do it.

NP: As part of that process then, do you concede that there needs to be a mechanism by which someone can be sacked from their post as Member of Parliament?

AMBER RUDD: I think that that is one of the things that I would encourage the review to look at. It may be the case, it may not but it’s wrong …

NP: What’s your view?

AMBER RUDD: It is wrong for us to have a knee-jerk reaction based on the past week. I think that what we need to do is to look at the whole issue, there needs to be a procedure put in place as soon as possible but the consequences of misbehaviour, the sort we’ve looking at this week, there needs to be a proper look at what action needs to be taken after that.

NP: I want to move on now to Damian Green and frankly the stories that are around this morning, he denies them as indeed he denies the stories that he has previously been linked to, that is out there. Now shouldn’t he be stepping down from the Cabinet Office while this investigation by the Cabinet Office is ongoing? How many Cabinet committees is he currently sitting on?

AMBER RUDD: He strongly denies these allegations. Let’s give him time and the inquiry time to make sure he has the opportunity to put it straight what he believes was the case. I really look forward to him clearing his name.

NP: He would have more time if he weren’t sitting on all those Cabinet committees.

AMBER RUDD: You can’t have a situation where any allegation that is made, somebody immediately has to resign because we don’t know what substance there is in any of these allegations. As I say, he strongly denies them.

NP: Some people ask why women often feel unable to speak out. The treatment of Kate Maltby, Damian Green’s accuser, gives one answer. This is the Daily Mail’s response, we’ll try and get it onto the screen in a second. What did you make of that? What did you make of the treatment of Kate Maltby by this paper, read by millions every day?

AMBER RUDD: I think that women should have the courage to come forward and make their statements where they feel there is something important to be said, as Kate clearly did. So I think that we need to make sure that all women, and indeed sometimes men, are able to come forward and be courageous as they have been, to step up and say this is what happened.

NP: But it is disgusting isn’t it?

AMBER RUDD: I am not going to be drawn on commenting on individual cases about this, what I want to make sure is that we live in an environment where there is respect for men and women and where women or men can come forward and tell people what happened in a way that allows them to deal with the sort of abuse we’ve been talking about.

NP: Did you worry about people being unfairly accused? You are introducing a new compulsory code of conduct but that in and of itself would not stop false accusations being made.

AMBER RUDD: There is always going to be the potential for false accusations but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have in place a really rigorous process so that people can have somewhere to go to make sure they are listened to, that’s the key thing.

NP: The fact is, in each of those instances that we’ve been discussing, the whips office knew about these things before the public. This morning you said it is time for full disclosure, for the whips office to hand over that information. When should that happen by, when should the Prime Minister know everything they do?

AMBER RUDD: Well I have also said that I spent a year in the whips office and I don’t recognise some of these stories about the sort of information that whips apparently have. What I recognise in the whips office is our duty to get government business through. Listen, I do think that we should have a situation where people are much more transparent about the information that is held and needs to be shared, so in answer to your question, of course the whips office should share the information with the Prime Minister but I am also saying there isn’t the sort of black book in operation that is sometimes suggested.

NP: That is fine but can get your assurance that if that information is passed to the Prime Minister, if there are any allegations of criminality they will be immediately passed to the police?

AMBER RUDD: Any allegations of criminality should be passed to the police irrespective of who’s holding them, of course.

NP: Indeed. There is a very real possibility if this scandal continues that people will take the route that Mr Crabb and Sir Michael have chosen not to and actually step down as Members of Parliament. If that happens the Conservatives could lose the working majority that you have, what happens at that point?

AMBER RUDD: Parliament is an extraordinary and fantastic place for most people to live and work. There is a small minority of people who have behaved badly, sometimes if we look at these allegations, very seriously but we need to make sure that we continue to attract people into parliament and I want to make sure that more women have confidence about coming into parliament. I think the government has made those changes, is making those changes and can I also just say, it’s not the only thing we’re doing.

NP: But on the topic that I’ve just asked you, if the government loses its majority, what then? Could we potentially see an early election? We have seen reports this morning that the government is preparing for by-elections.

AMBER RUDD: I have no knowledge about that but what I do know, and I do think it is important to make this point because I know that everybody is talking about this issue of individuals and allegations, but I just want to reassure viewers that we are also getting on with the important business of government, of delivering on our agenda, of making sure in my case that I work hard to keep people safe online and offline.

NP: A few days ago the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners suggested that you needed an extra £440 million for 2018/19, £845 million in 2019/20 and yet your response was to suggest look guys, don’t keep asking for money every time the crime starts to go up.

AMBER RUDD: My response was to say I recognise there are pressures on police in terms of the changes in crime …

NP: Budgetary pressures as well.

AMBER RUDD: Well in terms of the terms of growth of terrorism that we’ve had this week, that’s put increased pressure on them but I am also saying to them it’s not just about that, it’s about the powers that we give you to make sure that you can deliver on reducing crime and keeping people safe. I have recognised and acknowledged that crime has been changing and we are working to make sure they have the right training, the right powers and yes, the right resources, to address them.

NP: It has also been rising. Sara Thornton, the Chair of the National Police Chiefs Council, said before you made your speech, “Recorded crime is up by 13%, record levels of 999 calls, the police service is stretched, our staff are feeling it and the public ae noticing it.” Do you disagree with that characterisation?

AMBER RUDD: I just want to point out the difference between recorded crime and actual crime, she distinguished herself in her speech. Recorded crime has gone up and that’s because we are encouraging people to report it, as we were saying earlier in our conversation. I want people to have the confidence to come forward and report crime so that action can be taken but actual crime, people who are victims of crime, has come down a third since 2010 and that’s because of the amazing work of our police.

NP: Are you sure that you are giving the police enough money to do their job?

AMBER RUDD: We will always give the police the right resources to do their job. They have made certain issues a priority and I recognise that and I have said we are going to look carefully at what else we can do but I don’t just want them coming to me and doing press releases about money. I want to make sure that they have the right tools, the right power, the right training to reduce crime now.

NP: But less money.

AMBER RUDD: No, not less money. We’ve frozen the budget between 2015 and ’20, where other departments had to take cuts they have not. What we’ve done is put some money into a transformation fund but where forces maximise their precept they are able to make sure that they have a steady income going forward in terms of the real amount of money going into the forces.

NP: Home Secretary, many thanks for being with us.

AMBER RUDD: Thank you.

NP: Just one clarification, during my conversation with Emily Thornberry I suggested that the Leaders Office had been made aware of complaints against Jared O’Mara in September, in fact the allegations were put to the Labour Party Press Office not directly to the Leaders Office.