ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: Nigel Farage surprised many people this week by suggesting he might back a second referendum on EU membership, making him an unlikely ally – albeit temporarily – with the likes of Sir Nick Clegg, Lord Adonis and my next guest, Chuka Umunna, who is travelling to Brussels tomorrow with Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve and a few others to meet Michel Barnier to put forward the argument against a hard Brexit. Mr Umunna, many thanks for joining us.

CHUKKA UMUNNA: Many thanks for having me on.

NP: We’ll talk about your trip to Brussels in just a second but a little earlier this week you walked out of the meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party in a bit of, well what my mum would call a cream puff. What on earth was that all about?

CHUKKA UMUNNA: I just left the meeting to go to another commitment and this was written up as me walking out of the meeting. I left the meeting I was going to anyway but the convention is we don’t discuss the intricacies of what happens at meetings of the Parliamentary Labour party.

NP: Well let’s not delve into the intricacies but the suggestion is that you left because once again your leader got it wrong as regards EU membership being a prerequisite for a place in the single market, are we close to the mark there?

CHUKKA UMUNNA: Well I am not going to comment on what was said at the meeting but in terms of the notion that you have to be in the European Union to be part of the EU single market, that is not correct. Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland fully participate in the single market but they are not members of the European Union and there is no reason why the UK, if we leave, should not have that kind of relationship and why, from a Labour perspective, should you be arguing that we stay in the single market and the customs union after we leave, if we leave? Because it’s the best way of promoting social justice, increasing equality, reducing poverty and ensuring that we also have a rational debate about immigration. So if you believe in those things, which is what the majority of Labour party members, trade unionists and other progressive people believe in, then of course you should be arguing for us to stay in the single market and the customs union after we have left the European Union and do what other non-EU countries have done.

NP: We obviously, as you say, can’t talk about the specifics of a PLP meeting but what would it say about a senior politician who did not understand that very simple straightforward point about membership of the single market?

CHUKKA UMUNNA: Well to be frank there are a lot of us who understand a lot more about the European Union now than we did before this whole referendum debate started so in terms of all the technicalities, of course people will make mistakes but I know factually, we know that to fully participate in the single market does not require EU membership, that is a fact.

NP: The party position currently, as we understand it, I’m not sure if it is formal policy but it was announced by Kier Starmer yesterday, that Labour will vote against any deal that does not confer the exact same benefits as membership of the customs union and the single market. That’s not desperately far from your position is it?

CHUKKA UMUNNA: Well we have a position which has a goal without stipulating the model so Kier quite rightly says we want to maintain the exact same economic benefits as being a member of the single market and the customs union but the thing is means shape ends and we know with regard to the model that the only model that allows you to do that is actually continuing to fully participate and be a member of both of those things. Now we haven’t reached that place yet in terms of what happens after the transition period, that two year period after we leave the European Union. I and a huge number of people across the spectrum of the Labour party, spanning the whole spectrum of opinion, is of the view that we really need to go to the next step which is committing to being in the single market and the customs union because that way we can very effectively and most effectively take on the Conservatives Tory hard Brexit.

NP: But isn’t the simple fact of the matter this, the single biggest line for the European Union is ensuring that we don’t get a deal on those teams, that we end up with a worse deal otherwise what is the point of being a member of the European Union? Given than, is there a deal that Labour wouldn’t vote down at the end of this process?

CHUKKA UMUNNA: Well I’m not sure that I agree with your interpretation of where the European Union is coming on this. Michel Barnier, who is the chief negotiator for the EU, has been clear that if the UK wants to stay in the single market and the customs union it can do so but it will need to adhere to its rules and obviously make a contribution. Now Theresa May has taken those things off the table which is curious given that she put a Tory hard Brexit to the British people in that June general election last year which involved yanking us out of the single market and the customs union and, putting it in straightforward language, to basically have a very clear extreme break in terms of our relationship with the European Union and she lost her majority. So if you want to talk about mandates to do things, she certainly doesn’t have a mandate to pursue a hard Brexit because she lost her majority in the House of Commons.

NP: True, but plenty of people who voted for Labour back in June last year did so to avert a hard Brexit.

CHUKKA UMUNNA: That’s right.

NP: Some would suggest that was a pretty wasted vote.

CHUKKA UMUNNA: Look, we haven’t got to the end of the process and of course this Brexit process is due to continue until May 2019 which is the scheduled departure date so there is a long way to go yet and what I would say is look, I strongly believe that Brexit in the form that it was sold to the British people, certainly at the moment, is not transpiring to be what people thought it would be. People thought we would be getting £350 million extra per week for our NHS coming in as a result of us leaving the European Union, instead we are actually going to be paying a vast £39 billion divorce bill and that’s before all the other elements …

NP: Why don’t you just say it, look, can we please have a second referendum because you believe that we made the wrong decision, you believe that we made a decision that will damage the UK irreparably?

CHUKKA UMUNNA: What I believe is that Brexit, in the terms it was sold to the British people, is proving impossible to deliver however competent the government and …

NP: So why not have a second referendum then?

CHUKKA UMUNNA: Let me finish answering your question. I don’t get to decide this, in the end I think the people do and what I am saying is, Parliament has a duty to exhaust this process and try and deliver Brexit in the terms in which it was sold. Now if that proves to be impossible then of course we should have an open mind about what happens at the end of the process and I’m not opposed in principle at all to us having a new poll on this on the final deal, partly because there is a lot of talk about thwarting the will of the people. I don’t see how you can thwart the will of the people if the people get the final say during this process and so that certainly needs to be an avenue which we’re open to and frankly I think Nigel Farage is very interesting on this because he clearly thinks that Brexit in the terms he thinks it was sold to the British people, he wants a hard Brexit and he thinks that’s the only way to do it. He doesn’t believe that is now going to happen, it’s for the same reason that he is also now saying look, I’m open to having a poll on this but I don’t think it would just be a replay of the 2016 poll because 2016 was a debate about hypotheticals, now the rubber has hit the road we know factually what Brexit looks like, that’s the difference. So if you had a new poll it would be on a factual deal, this is what Brexit looks like or staying in to fight for a different kind of European Union, that would be the choice. I don't think we’re there yet but I think we should certainly be open and in principle I’ve got no objection to it.

NP: Chuka Umunna, lovely to see you, thanks for joining us.

CHUKKA UMUNNA: Thank you.