ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON

NIALL PATERSON: Johnny Mercer, backbench Conservative MP, tipped as a possible future party leader, a former soldier who fought in Afghanistan more than once and now one of the handful of Tory MPs taking on the Prime Minister on Universal Credit. Mr Mercer, a very good morning to you.

JOHNNY MERCER: Good morning Niall.

NP: Let’s start shall we with Universal Credit. It has proved to be something of a thorn in a the government’s side for some time now and it appears to be building to a head. Simply put, what are your concerns with the scheme?

JOHNNY MERCER: Well my concerns has always been the same really. I think Universal Credit as a poverty fighting tool, it is really important I places like Plymouth where the benefits culture has transformed our city, it’s really taken away ambition and opportunities for young people, Universal Credit is going to tackle that but we have just got to be so careful about how it comes in. There are a couple of key areas I have been concerned around and I haven’t changed my tune on that. The phone number was a bit of an error really and the seven day wait that’s built in, making it six weeks before someone gets their first payment, I think is quite difficult to ask people to do.

NP: I mean the Prime Minister was asked of her assessment of whether or not the system was correct, this is what she had to say, in her words: “It’s a system that is working.”

JOHNNY MERCER: She’s absolutely right.

NP: Demonstrably that’s not the case.

JOHNNY MERCER: Well it is.

NP: A fifth of people do not receive their money within that six week period.

JOHNNY MERCER: If you look at the statistics from where this has been rolled out, and absolutely granted these are around single people living on their own, it is a less complicated scenario, it is working in terms of getting people into work which is what this is about. The single biggest factor in improving life chances in vulnerable people is getting people into work so it is working, there are areas where it could work better and the government is listening on this …

NP: The government is listening, you went to see the Prime Minister on this, you have been quite vocal about your concerns about the system and the roll out of Universal Credit, you had that meeting and you seem to be a bit more sanguine about it today. What concessions did the Prime Minister offer?

JOHNNY MERCER: Look, Niall, that was a private meeting with the Prime Minster, I’m not going to go into that.

NP: But it’s fair to say that she offered you something?

JOHNNY MERCER: No, it’s not fair to say that. I had a conversation with the Prime Minister and that’s a private conversation. My concerns about this have always been the same, around particularly the two issues I’ve just mentioned to you there and yes, we have seen movement on the phone line, which is good. We may see movement on four to six weeks, no one has given me that steer but at the end of the day this is a modern compassionate Conservative party that wants to get these right, it’s not fingers in the ear time and just crack on with it. The government is listening, David Gork and Damian, we’ve done a lot of work on this, they are listening – same day advances comes out, the system is changing as we roll it out but what we mustn’t do is stop it going because this is going to be the single biggest tool in fighting poverty in constituencies like mine.

NP: Let’s deal with that 0345 number, we are told now at the end of the month that will be a thing of the past but what strikes me is that somewhere in Whitehall is a minister who signed off on that.

JOHNNY MERCER: I think that’s a little bit unfair because I think a lot of the phone numbers are like that. I don't think there’s a minister who sat there and gone yes, this is a particularly good idea and if you want the phone support …

NP: But someone should have done shouldn’t they, used a Freephone line to deal with universal credit?

JOHNNY MERCER: Well yes, there’s a lot that goes on and actually it’s the same as other phone lines to deal with other issues and the same rates that you would have to phone your local MP for a surgery appointment so let’s not pretend it’s some great conspiracy. It’s something that should have been corrected, it has been corrected and that’s what the government does in my experience. I’ve only been there two years but it’s not an effort to sort of implement a policy that’s going to have a bad effect on the country, they want to get this right. David Gork is working really hard to get this right and we’ve got to be honest and give them credit for that and actually go with the programme.

NP: If you disagree with the 0345 number for Universal Credit you should presumably then disagree with it elsewhere in government.

JOHNNY MERCER: Well I think that these lines that we’re asking people, particularly around the DWP, to get in touch and try and correct issues with their benefits, these are really vulnerable people for whom they’ll be on pay as you go contracts, they are not going to have access to free phone calls and yes, we’ve got to think a bit more carefully around that, absolutely but you know, is this a deliberate attempt to make people pay to get in touch with the DWP? I think that’s a bit far-fetched.

NP: Sticking on this topic of Universal Credit, as you say there are concerns about the month in arrears, there are concerns about the week waiting period, there are concerns that people are not being made aware of the fact that funds can be made in advance if they are necessary. We are not talking about a pilot of changing policemen’s helmet yellow or changing the speed limit on road works on motorways, we’re talking about a system that in essence if it doesn’t work, takes food out the mouths of children so what reassurances did you receive from the Prime Minister in your meeting that the system can …

JOHNNY MERCER: I am not going to change my tune on this, it was a private meeting with the Prime Minister and I’m not going to go into that.

NP: Well on behalf of your constituents who have raised their concerns, what reassurances have you received from the Prime Minister that this system that you have identified as …

JOHNNY MERCER: Well again, I’m not going to talk about a conversation with the Prime Minister. I am confident that this government is listening, if they weren’t I would say something about it. If the government wasn’t working hard to make these adjustments, to make this actually work, I would say something about it but that’s not the case and they have moved on this stuff. We’ve got to deal with this in the realms of reality, they have introduced even same day advances for those who have no money whatsoever so this policy is changing but we cannot stop it, we’ve got to introduce it because ultimately it is improving lives in constituencies like mine.

NP: Had Universal Credit not reared its ugly head, I presume many people would have actually thought this to have been a pretty good week for the Prime Minister in terms of the noises emerging from Brussels on Brexit, I mean are you pleased with the way the negotiations are going?

JOHNNY MERCER: I don’t particularly take a view on the negotiations because I’m not one of those who think we should comment on everything that happens. We have …

NP: I’m noticing that.

JOHNNY MERCER: We are going through Brexit, a really, really difficult process, we’ve got to get it right and whilst I don’t subscribe to this idea you can’t go out trying to get a no deal, right, there is no point going in saying we’re happy to take whatever comes because we’re leaving anyway. At the end of the day the Prime Minister, David Davies, Boris and the team, they have got a responsibility to get a deal for people who voted for Brexit, that’s the key. People voted for this vision and we have to deliver that and I think we should back the Prime Minister and get on with it rather than picking at the bones all the time.

NP: Would you vote against a no deal Brexit, would you vote with the Labour party to ensure that the Commons gets a final say on the deal?

JOHNNY MERCER: No, I wouldn’t. The UK has voted to leave the European Union. One of the things that got me into politics is that we treat, I did feel like we treated people like they were stupid previously and now people are saying they didn’t know what they were voting for. They did know what they were voting for, you can’t have a referendum and then go back on it. We now have to unite as one team and deliver on that promise of leaving the European Union and go on to what the Conservative party stands for afterwards, that’s what people want. They want to know how we are going to fund the health service, they want to know how they are going to increase the life chances of our most vulnerable in constituencies in like Plymouth and whilst Brexit drowns it all out I’m afraid, that’s not what people want from politics and we’ve got to do better.

NP: Actually talking about the reasons behind your move into politics, you said once you got fed up with the difference between what people say in the Commons and the platitudes that come out on Remembrance Day. I mean arguably as regards our armed forces, things have gotten worse since you got into politics.

JOHNNY MERCER: Well I don't think they’ve got worse, I think it’s a journey. I make no bones about it, we’re not where I want to be. I’ve worked extremely hard on the veterans piece and actually there are people who work day in and day out in veterans care trying to get this right and yes, I think the government could have and should have done more but events have kind of overtaken us in that way and Brexit dominates the bandwidth and I get that but we need to talk about as a party what we look like after Brexit and I hope the veterans care and being a party of defence means something.

NP: On the claim to be a party of defence, I mean do you consider the Conservatives to be bound by their manifesto commitment to increase defence spending above inflation?

JOHNNY MERCER: Yes, I do. I saw Michael Fallon last week and he mentioned that again and I don’t expect that to change. That is a commitment that people voted for the Conservative party and look, this 2% argument Niall is a bit of a herring in the wind really because you can’t just get a level of GDP spend to it and think everything’s all right, it’s got to be done around capabilities.

NP: So Michael has suggested that now is the time to see spending rise above the 2% level but we learn from the Sunday Telegraph’s Ben Farmer this morning the Treasury is blocking the manifesto commitment to increase spending above inflation. If that were to happen, that’s a pretty fundamental failure isn’t it on the part of the party to live up to commitments?

JOHNNY MERCER: Look, that’s not something I am going to support. People voted for a Conservative government and part of that was a 0.5% increase above inflation. We need to see that because I think defence spending is too low. I think if you look at both the threats that we are currently facing, which by Michael’s own admission have developed significantly in the last two years, and Brexit, what the UK looks like after Brexit, there is an increased role for our armed forces and we’ve got to fund it.

NP: Things have changed somewhat since your day, I mean back then there were real concerns about kit, those are certainly not to the same extent that they once were but the concern appears to be the number of people that we actually have in uniform at the moment.

JOHNNY MERCER: Yes, but again numbers is a bit of a red herring, it’s about capabilities, right, and what people can do and what we can ask people to do.

NP: But the two are linked.

JOHNNY MERCER: No, no, they are linked but they are also not linked so you have got the technology and what we can enable people to do, you look at these Type 26 frigates, yes we’ve got less of them but they are infinitely more capable and actually we’ve got to have an educated debate around this, it has got to be around capabilities and what we can achieve, how far we can project our forces but we have got to ask what we want from our armed forces as a country and crucially what we don’t want and that’s what we haven’t had a discussion about.

NP: Still, you of all people know the significance of the chain of command, of following orders, I mean what would you think of a leader that tolerated open insurrection, where her orders weren’t followed? You might notice I use the feminine there.

JOHNNY MERCER: Yes, well no, I don’t really buy into that because look, Brexit is an enormously difficult thing and I actually think every government needs someone like Philip Hammond in the Treasury, someone like Boris who’s got a view, someone like Theresa keeping her hand on the tiller. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle, I haven’t got a problem with it. I would suggest that working as a team is the only way we’re going to solve this particular…

NP: A team does require leaders though doesn’t it?

JOHNNY MERCER: A team does require leaders and Theresa is doing a good job.

NP: And the EU is the enemy?

JOHNNY MERCER: The EU is not the enemy.

NP: But how do you view it then? I’m sorry, I’m being slightly facetious but in the sense that we have Theresa May at the moment struggling to keep a lid on some members of the Cabinet, I’m sure she would prefer them to be quiet from time to time. The characterisation of the EU as the enemy may not be your view but the characterisation of some of the people sitting round the Cabinet table as her enemy, I mean it’s demonstrably true.

JOHNNY MERCER: I don't think it is demonstrably true. I would say in fairness, I think in organisations where I’ve worked before, the teamwork has been something that I have found particularly lacking actually and particularly disappointing actually. I think when your leader has a particularly difficult time, actually that’s when you become more resilient, more disciplined, you work harder as a team to achieve the outcome you are trying to do. At the end of the day we are sent her by people who voted for us to get an outcome and it is not about us and the dynamics going on within the Cabinet so yes, I accept what you are saying on that front but I think Theresa’s a good Prime Minister and look, we need to get on and deliver Brexit, that is what people want on the doors in places like Plymouth. We need to deliver that and then get on to what being in the Conservative party actually means beyond that.

NP: Do you aspire to lead where there are many who suggest we should perhaps skip a generation in the Conservative party?

JOHNNY MERCER: I’ve got a very busy seat down in Plymouth and I like getting on with that, thanks, Niall.

NP: I am sure you do indeed. Johnny Mercer, many thanks for being with us.