ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: Labour’s Diane Abbott has today written to the Prime Minister accusing the Home Secretary of breaking the Ministerial Code and demanding an inquiry into the government’s use of immigration removal targets. Separately, 200 MPs have signed a letter calling for the promises made to the Windrush generation to be enshrined in law. Joining me now from Lancashire is the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell, Mr McDonnell always good to see you, a very good morning.

JOHN McDONNELL: Morning, morning.

NP: I wonder if we might start – we’ll deal with Windrush in just a second but I wonder if we might start with the local elections. Judging from what I’ve read I imagine you’ve got the bunting out the attic, the champagne on ice.

JOHN McDONNELL: [Laughs] No, I never predict local elections, you just can’t but they’re not like a general election or anything like that, very many local factors come into play so from what we’ve seen, we’ve had a fantastic campaign, large number of people from our membership knocking on doors and the feedback is pretty good but you can never tell until the day itself. I’m saying to people, you know, just be very careful about any predictions because we’ve been here before and you get all the hype and then people can get let down. I think we’ll have a good result but we’ll see on the day, as I say too many local factors come into play to make an accurate prediction at this stage.

NP: A good result – do I detect a touch of expectation management entering the narrative now, Mr McDonnell?

JOHN McDONNELL: [Laughs] No! I’ve got a track record of trying to predict general elections and I’m not bad on those but on local government I’ve got an abysmal track record of predictions so don’t rely on me. I think we’ll have a good night because that’s the feedback I’m getting from all the work on the ground and I’ve been touring round the country in the campaigns but local elections are just really unpredictable and remember, remember we were at an all-time high in our local government election results only four years ago on these seats so it’s very difficult to push the bar even higher but we’ll see on the night, we’ll see. I think we’ll have a good night but as I say, it’s difficult to predict.

NP: You know I’m going to keep trying to draw you in to specifics, I mean others have of course predicted great things for Labour, particularly in and around London. I’m wondering whether you think the accusations, the allegations of anti-Semitism might have an effect on local elections, particularly in places like Barnet where it strikes me that very well might be the case?

JOHN McDONNELL: You can’t tell on these things. I’ve been in Barnet and I’ve been canvassing in Barnet and I’m back there next week and the response on the doorstep seems pretty good. I spoke to a group of young people at one of the local sixth form colleges there and the question did come up and do you know, it was a really good debate, it was a really healthy debate about how we address anti-Semitism, not just in the party but also in the community and I think on this issue, I think as a community you know we might come out strengthened on this because it’s highlighted the seriousness of anti-Semitism and it’s focused all our minds now about how we eradicate it, both in the Labour party but what came across in the discussions I had in Barnet, within our society as well. I don't think we should tolerate living in a society where Jewish cemeteries are attacked and daubed with swastikas and you have to have security on Jewish schools, that’s unacceptable. So if any good is going to come out of this now, certainly it’s about cleaning up the act within the Labour party but also I think more widely than that, tackling it within society as a whole.

NP: Indeed and actually to your credit, Mr McDonnell, you identified anti-Semitism as an issue within Labour ranks pretty early on, Mr Corbyn has caught up with you. I do wonder whether or not you are perhaps slightly annoyed by the fact that there are others within the PLP and the wider party who don’t seem to have got the message?

JOHN McDONNELL: Look, let me just correct you on that. Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t caught up with me, we’ve been working hand in hand and we’re exactly on the same page and always have been on this issue. Jeremy Corbyn is one of the most, well one of the most fundamental anti-racist campaigners, devoting his life to it, including tackling anti-Semitism…

NP: When did he identify it as a problem within the Labour party? It was only in the past few days.

JOHN McDONNELL: No, that’s not true, he has consistently argued there is an issue here to be addressed and when commissioning the Chakrabarti Report, sought action to address it. The fact now that he’s saying we’ve got to be more, more thorough on all of this, the new General Secretary has been appointed and she’s been told that’s your number one priority by Jeremy and that’s exactly what she’s doing. But let’s get the message clear to every Labour party member and every member of our community – we will not tolerate anti-Semitism in any political party, right or left, or in our society and we will root it out and that’s what we’re doing,.

NP: One person I would imagine you have the ear of is Len McClusky and he wrote in the New Statesman this week that there are Corbyn hater MPs using anti-Semitism to smear the leader. Is that your assessment?

JOHN McDONNELL: No and Jeremy said that’s not his assessment either but one element of Len McClusky’s article was an acknowledgement that there is an issue of anti-Semitism, no matter how small the assessment of it is, and it has to be rooted out so Len accepted there is an issue here to be addressed and actually gave his weight, threw his weight behind addressing it and, you know, that’s what we’ll do.

NP: Will you maybe then be having a word with Chris Williamson, your colleague in the PLP, who is fundraising for Marc Wadsworth at the moment to appeal against his expulsion from the party? Mr Williamson called it absurd, again is that your assessment?

JOHN McDONNELL: No, I’ve never commented on individual cases, particularly if there’s legal action or processes going on, because I don’t want to jeopardise the due process on each of these cases and that is what I’ve said to others as well. Let due process take place, make sure there’s natural justice, make sure their cases are heard properly and then if people are found guilty of it, there are a whole range of measures that have to be put in place. In some instances it is about re-education, making sure people understand what the issue is; in other cases it is saying your behaviour is unacceptable, you’re out of this party. Do you know, we have to have a … I’m hoping we have a wider debate about anti-Semitism across the whole community now because it isn’t just about cleaning up the act within the Labour party. As I said, I’m shocked at the levels of anti-Semitism that there is within wider society and I am hoping on a cross-party basis, on a cross-community basis, we can address this issue thoroughly now.

NP: Why then did Jeremy Corbyn not take any of the suggestions from the Board of Deputies, the Jewish Leadership Council? I mean on one specific issue, why shouldn’t it be the case that MPs, Labour MPs are told you will not share a platform with someone who has been suspended from the party for allegations of anti-Semitism?

JOHN McDONNELL: It’s already within the rules that you do not share a platform with people who have been expelled. Suspension is a slightly different matter and that’s one of the issues we have got to discuss within the party. When he met with the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council, there was a whole list of issues that they raised and processes that they wanted the Labour party to enact, there was a discussion about how that can be done. In some instances you have to change the constitution and it takes a while to do that, in other instances …

NP: [inaudible question]

JOHN McDONNELL: No, no, this was presented to us last week in the discussion that Jeremy had, this agenda, so he is working through them. They are going to meet again in July, I think the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council by July will see that, for example, on one of the demands that they had – quite rightfully – is processing the backlog of cases that we’ve got. I think they’ll be pleased with the progress that we have on that by July. On the other matters where there’s some legal advice that needs to be taken, particularly around data protection, this issue about a separate ombudsman to be looking at these issues – again we can report back and work through these issues together. I know they were dispirited by that meeting but again we have to ensure that the processes that we put in place are based upon sound legal advice and are not challengeable and then they’re effective as well. I think by July at the next meeting, we’re going to be meeting them on a regular basis now so we work together.

NP: Okay Mr McDonnell, clearly it has been a very bad week for Amber Rudd. Why should she resign if it was an honest mistake when she inadvertently misled the House? Do you have a problem with there being targets for the removal of illegal immigrants from the United Kingdom?

JOHN McDONNELL: Look, I stand by what Theresa May said over a number of years ago when she was criticising Labour Home Office Ministers and she basically said if you make decisions, you as a Minister, you’re responsible for your department and if something goes wrong you should go. Now Theresa May was right then and we believe we’re right now. Amber Rudd either misled parliament or was too incompetent to manage her own department, on either grounds she should go and it’s not me saying this, I’m abiding by the strictures that Theresa May herself set out only a number of years ago when she was in opposition.

NP: But to be clear on the last part of my question, you personally have no problem with there being targets for the removal of illegal immigrants?

JOHN McDONNELL: I think what happened was that the government, the Conservative government, set ludicrous targets that were never going to be met and as a result of that created what they call the hostile environment and that hostile environment led to human suffering. That is unacceptable and what we’ve always said is these targets never work. What you do is you make sure that …

NP: But Diane Abbott said yesterday that the Labour party in government would have targets.

JOHN McDONNELL: Yes, you have a reasonable and fair system which arrives at reaching a reasonable level of migration benefiting the economy and jobs overall, that’s exactly what you do and you plan it in that way. You do not set ludicrously low targets in the way the Conservatives did which are unmeetable.

NP: Whilst we have you, Mr McDonnell, I wonder what you make of that story broken by Sky’s City Editor, Mark Kleinman, yesterday, this merger between Asda and Sainsbury, do you have any qualms?

JOHN McDONNELL: Yes I do, I think it should be looked at obviously by the Monopolies Commission on whether or not it should be going ahead, it should be examined in some detail because the most important thing is that the customer gets a fair deal as well as the workers themselves so yes, on all of these things they should be looked at and see what the impact would be on the market overall.

NP: And briefly, I have to ask because there are a number of people asking about it today, the Sunday Times story about Russian interference in the last general election, of course the existence of Russian bots doesn’t necessarily mean that they had an effect on voters but would you participate in an investigation into whether or not, would the Labour party participate in an investigation into whether or not Russia did interfere in our electoral process?

JOHN McDONNELL: This is ludicrous, this is the thing they accused Neil Kinnock of during the general election, if I remember rightly, the Russian Embassy was putting out supportive noises towards the Tory party. If there’s an issue here about anything of Russian influence in our society, it’s about Russian oligarchs funding the Tory party, let’s have an inquiry into that. If they are serious about tackling that, why don’t they support my amendments, our amendments, the Labour party amendments to the Money Laundering Bill on Tuesday which will tackle this dirty money coming through the City of London and winding up in our economy. This Sunday Times story, a Conservative supporting newspaper, farcical. They tried it in ’92 on Neil Kinnock, they’re doing it again just before the election this time. It’s a classic Sunday Times smear campaign. If they are really serious about tackling the influence of Putin and his allies in our society, get them to support our legislation that we’re promoting which is tackling money laundering and dirty money coming through the City from Russian oligarchs.

JOHN McDONNELL: Well slipped in, Mr McDonnell, well slipped in. Many thanks for joining us, we appreciate it.