Our mission

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS

SKY NEWS – EU:IN OR OUT – MICHAEL GOVE – SKY NEWS – 8p.m. 3.06.16

PART TWO: MICHAEL GOVE AUDIENCE Q&A WITH KAY BURLEY

KAY BURLEY:  Michael Gove has been interviewed by Faisal Islam and now it is the turn of our studio audience to put their questions to him.  So let’s go straight in with John Shanker, what’s your question for Mr Gove.

JOHN SHANKER: Good evening Mr Gove, I feel that the leave campaign is spreading project lies, yes, project lies with no concrete evidence on what will happen to the economy if we were to leave.  [Applause]  I feel your campaign is more to do with a bunch of politicians wanting to further their own political careers.  Tell me, Mr Gove, why should we trust you?

MICHAEL GOVE: Well John I think you should trust the case that I’m making rather than any individual politician.  This debate is far bigger than the fate of any individual politician, it’s about all of us in this room and all of us at home, it’s about the sort of country that we want to see.  What I believe in is hope.  I believe that last night I’m afraid what we heard was depressing and it was an exercise in trying to scare you into not falling through what you know in your heart to be right which is that Britain is a great country, that we can achieve amazing things if only we trust the next generation.  I think whatever decision we take, leave or remain, on June 23rd, the one thing that’s clear to me is that if we in the future have confidence in ourselves then there is no limit to what we can achieve and I think that the depressing litany of projections about World War Three and global Brexit recession that we hear from the Remain side is not the sort of approach that we should take into the future whereas on our side in the Leave campaign, what we believe in is unlocking the potential of the British people and I think, John, there are all sorts of reasons to believe that our country, the fifth largest economy in the world with the most impressive armed forces, with the best publicly funded health service, with so much to offer, that is Project Hope and it’s what I hope people will vote for on the 23rd.  [Applause]

JOHN: I don't think so, I still think it is Project Lies, I still think you are continuing to peddle lies about the £350 million.  We all know that it isn’t that figure and it’s just a matter of lies.  

KB: Mr Gove, as far as this £350 million figure is concerned, that’s on the side of the battle bus, that’s what your team is saying is sent to Brussel every week, even Mr Farage, even Mr Farage who I spoke to last night said that he wouldn’t use that figure.  Is he wrong or are you?

MICHAEL GOVE: Well on this occasion I’m afraid that Nigel is wrong.  The truth is that we give actually more than £350 million to Brussels every week.  Now we do get some of that money back and it’s important and I was making this point to Faisal earlier, to acknowledge that in a spirit of total transparency.  We get some money back through a rebate and it is also the case that the European Union spends some money in this country on things like farming subsidies and also supporting universities but the truth is that we cannot count on that rebate.  That rebate is decided by other countries, it is not up to us and one of the problems that we’ve had in the past is that the rebate has been whittled away and I fear if we vote to Remain that rebate will only be reduced further.  If we leave however we can take control of all of that money, we’re not reliant on anyone’s else’s generosity for the rebate and more than that, the money that is currently spent by the European Union we can spend on our priorities and that means we can continue to support farmers, continue to support scientists but we’ll also have in addition an extra £10 billion to spend on our priorities like the NHS.  That’s got to be sensible.  [Applause]

JOHN: So therefore the figure of £350 million was wrong and it was actually a lie that you put on the bus and told everyone.

MICHAEL GOVE: No, I think the figure of £350 million is a fact but of course with all facts you provide broader context and people see.  The critical thing though is control, that money is controlled by the European Union and if we vote to leave we can take back control of that money and we’re no longer in the hands of people who may not always have our best interests at heart.  

KB: The gentleman there with the blue shirt.  

MAN: Laura from the BBC said we pay into the EU £10 billion a year, where’s that 350 then and why is he wrong and you’re right if he is part of your …?

KB: It is going to haunt you, this figure, Mr Gove.  

MICHAEL GOVE: Of course it’s the same thing, it’s the difference between the total amount that we hand over and then what we get back.  If at the end of any exercise we get some money back then of course that’s great but we cannot rely on that money being given back in the future. At the moment we hand over nearly £20 billion and we get 10 billion back.  

KB: £17.8 billion and we don’t send it all is an argument but we’ll have to leave it there for now because we want to bring in Sam Shabir, what’s your question?

SAM: Hi, I think it’s disappointing to see the Leave campaign use such divisive tactics on the issue of immigration.  One of the greatest things in our society is multiculturalism, do you regret that the Leave campaign has been focusing on the so called problem of immigration?  

MICHAEL GOVE: Well Sam I agree with you, I think one of the great things about Britain is that it’s a hugely successful multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-racial society, that’s a really good thing and one of the ways that we’ve built that success is that in the past we’ve been able to control migration so it’s in the benefits of everyone. I’d like to see migration continue in the future but I’d like to see it controlled and the only way that we can control migration, indeed the only way that we can be truly fair to everyone that wants to come here is to leave the European Union.  I think it’s wrong that any one of the 450 million citizens of the European Union can be at the front of the queue and can come here automatically when there are people from countries with which we have deep ties such as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the nations of the Caribbean who can’t come here in the same way.  I think that is discriminatory and I think that by leaving the European Union we can actually have a truly inclusive non-racist immigration policy which works in the interests of everyone in this country.  [Applause]

KB: Do you want to come back on that one, Sam?  

SAM: It’s sort of confusing as a voter because you’re saying what you just said but then you have people like Nigel Farage coming out yesterday saying he doesn’t like how society is changing, how society is looking very different and comments like that surely ostracise people so do you stand by what he said?

MICHAEL GOVE: I can’t agree with that. I think we’re really lucky to live in one of the most amazing cities here in London in the world and I think that we’re uniquely fortunate to live in the best country in the world and it’s because I think this country is so great and because I believe its people are so wonderful that I want them to control who comes here and the numbers who come here.  I trust them to be generous, wise, humane and right.  At the moment control of our immigration policy isn’t in the hands of the British people, I think that we should take back control so that people like you and others can debate and decide how many people can come here so that we can attract people here who can strengthen our economy and yes, provide a safe haven and refuge for people fleeing persecution.  That is the British way and the only way we can ensure we have that policy is if we vote to leave the European Union and if we take back control.  

KB: Let’s bring in Andrew Carnegie, Andrew runs his own small business, he is making parts for intensive care units.  Andrew, what is your question please?

ANDREW CARNEGIE: Mr Gove, in general elections parties present detailed manifestos on how they propose to manage the economy if elected, why hasn’t the Leave campaign presented a detailed economic plan?

MICHAEL GOVE: Well Andrew, first of all thank you for the work you do, I think it’s hugely to your credit that you are committed to producing products that will improve the lives of people in pain and suffering but more than that, we have outlined in significant detail things that would change as a result of leaving the European Union.  One of the things that I’ve explained is we would be able to take away VAT on fuel if we left the European Union.  One of the problems about being in the EU is that once VAT has been slapped on a product you can’t take it down to zero.  That means that everyone, the poorest, pensioners, pays 5% VAT on fuel to heat and light their own home. I’ve said if we leave the European Union we can take that VAT off and that means the very poorest in our society can be better off.  I’ve also outlined that if we leave the European Union we can invest additional millions in our National Health Service and it is also the case that those of us in Vote Leave have outlined that if we leave the European Union we can tackle the rogue European Court of Justice which not only imposes laws that mean that multinationals can dodge taxes here but is also responsible for weakening our border controls so that we cannot keep out criminals and we cannot kick out terrorists.  There have been detailed proposals that have been put forward about how our life could be better but the ultimate question is, whatever view you take of our future, whether or not you think it’s right to have VAT on this product or to lower taxes on another product, you can only have those decisions enforced by people who are accountable to you if you vote to leave the European Union so that we can take back control.  [Applause]

KB: Andrew has said that he wants the Leave campaign to tell him when you are planning to publish your economic plan, do you have  date for that?

MICHAEL GOVE: We have already published details of our economic plan and we’ll be seeing more in the course of next week but a critical thing about this is that the Leave campaign is not an alternative government, the Leave campaign are a group of people who believe that the government that we elected a year ago should take this country out of the European Union.  The point of a general election is to choose the government and the point of a referendum is to give that government instructions so when you vote to leave what you’ll be doing is sending a clear instruction to this government that you want them to take back control of VAT and you want them to take back control of health policy and to take back control of our borders.  

KB: Andrew, did you miss the economic plan or did you not read it?

ANDREW:  Well I think the answer is there is no economic plan.  [Applause] I’ve got two points, the first one is that it appears to me that you’re asking people to ask for a divorce and to sort the financial settlement out afterwards.  [Applause] That makes no sense to me, there’s lots of people that go through divorces and the last thing you want to do is try and sort the money out afterwards, you negotiate before and without having a plan in place and putting the effort into that plan it makes no sense to me.  With all due respect, Mr Gove, it seems to me that it is almost like a First World War general, you’re waving the flag, you’re saying over the top men but you have no idea what’s on the front line or what the casualty rate will be in the conflict that’s to come.  [Applause]

MICHAEL GOVE: Well it is certainly an arresting image, the First World War image but ultimately what I’m putting my faith in is the ingenuity, the creativity and the strength of the British people.  Many of those who are arguing that we should remain are trying to frighten you by saying that it would be impossible for Britain to succeed, they are saying that Britain is too small, too poor and that we’re all too stupid to be able to succeed on the outside.  I comprehensively reject that.  I think we would be economically stronger, capable of forging trade deals with other countries.  It’s a fact that the European Union is a declining share of the world’s economy, it’s a fact that the European Union is growing slower than every continent in the world apart from Antarctica, it’s a fact that if we vote to leave and we take back control then we can shape an economic policy which is in our interests. Britain has been strong in the past and it will be strong in the future if we work as an independent self-governing democracy.  It works for America, for Canada, for Australia and New Zealand, it can work for us again if only we liberate the talents of the British people.  [Applause]

KB: Let’s bring in Jimmy who is a third year engineering student at Cambridge University, good for you Jimmy.  What’s your question?

JIMMY: Good evening Mr Gove.  You won your campaign in the Scottish independence referendum ensuring that Scots continue to have some of their laws set by Westminster, why can’t you accept that some of our laws should be made by a democratically elected body in Europe for the collective good of all countries?

MICHAEL GOVE: Well as you know I was born and brought up in Scotland, I consider myself to be Scottish and British at the same time and I am proud of our United Kingdom, its history and its traditions.  One of its traditions is that there is every four or five years an election in which you can decide who the government is and everyone here knows that our Prime Minister is David Cameron, some of you voted for him, some of you voted against him but how many people here know who the five Presidents are who run Europe, five Presidents?  Can anyone here name all five of them?  I don't think you can, I don't think anyone in the street can.  Harriet Harman couldn’t.  The truth is the European Union is not a democracy, the European Union is run by people in the Commission and in the Court who none of us ever elected, who scarcely any of us can name and who none of us can sack. The most powerful symbol in our democracy is not Parliament, it’s the removal van that arrives every five or ten years outside Downing Street and says the British people, Prime Minister, have told you you are fired.  We cannot do that, none of us can fire the President of the European Commission or the President of the European Court or the President of the European Central Bank and I think that is wrong.  One of the reasons I went into politics is that I think I should be accountable for my decisions but as long as I am  a member, or this country is a member of the European Union there are all sorts of decisions that are taken at a European level that I can’t alter.  That’s undemocratic, unaccountable, wrong, it needs to change and it will if we vote leave on the 23rd June and take back control of our democracy.  [Applause]

KB: Lady at the front.  

WOMAN: Mr Cameron offered this referendum to keep the Tory party together last year and to buy off UKIP, he won an election he didn’t expect to win and which is now being examined for election fraud.  If some of those seats are found to have been wrongly won or not won at all, that will mean this referendum is being held on a totally false premise, it will be illegal. What happens then if we end up out and we find out that some of those seats were fraudulently won?

MICHAEL GOVE: I don't know the details of these allegations and they are being investigated and as Faisal pointed out, as Lord High Chancellor one of the things that I mustn’t do is comment on legal proceedings but there is a broader point here. The Prime Minister said that it has been more than 40 years since people have had a chance to decide whether or not we should be members of the European Union and he is giving all of us a chance to vote on this question.  I think it was brave and right of him once he had that majority to honour that promise, nobody can say he is doing anything other than sticking to his word and being true about what he believes. On that basis I think it is up to all of us to decide what we think is the right thing to do.  This is an historic moment and it is a moment when actually whatever you think of Conservative politicians the real power rests with the people, the real power rests with all of you and I think that is a humbling but also a wonderful moment because you will decide.

KB: Jason Hislop now, hello Jason.  

JASON HISLOP: I find the Scottish independence referendum to be really nasty and divisive so if the rest of the UK votes to leave the EU and the majority of people in Scotland to remain, is another Scottish referendum inevitable and the break-up of the Union?

MICHAEL GOVE: No, I don't think it is.  A majority of people in Scotland are against a second referendum and a majority of people in Scotland are against independence and I don't think that if the people of the United Kingdom vote to leave one union that the people of Scotland will vote to leave another and I also think that if we vote to leave it will be a vote of confidence in all of us, the United Kingdom together.  The Scottish referendum, you’re right, had its tough and difficult times but it was also an exercise in democracy and a majority said that we believe that the United Kingdom should survive.  Whatever the result of this referendum it will be democracy in action and I think that this is an opportunity not just to have democracy in action but it is an opportunity for us to strengthen and reinvigorate our democracy because our democratic traditions in Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland are what have enabled us to be a beacon globally, setting an example, being a force for good and making sure that we are a great place for everyone to live.  [Applause]

KB: Let’s bring in Lynne Chandler here, Lynne is a part time historian, she owns an apartment in France.  Hello to you Lynne, what’s your question?

LYNNE CHANDLER:  Good evening.  As Kay says, I own a small retirement apartment in France so my question is, what would be the consequence of a leave vote for the hundreds of thousands of Brits across Europe who own homes?

MICHAEL GOVE: Where about in France is your apartment?  

LYNNE: The south of France.

MICHAEL GOVE: I’ve got friends who live in France as well and one of the things is that many of them are people, or they have homes in France, many of them are voting in favour of Britain leaving the European Union because they think it is in Britain’s interests and they also know that there are international laws and international rules that mean that if you are legally and ordinarily resident in another country then even if your home country votes to leave the European Union all your rights, all your privileges are carried on and are respected so the one thing I would say to you and indeed to everyone who enjoys living and who enjoys the prospect of retirement, which I suspect is many years hence, enjoys thinking about retirement, the one thing is that your investment will be safe and your future will be safe whatever the decision on June 23rd.  

LYNNE: Would someone like the French government respect those laws?

MICHAEL GOVE: They would have to respect those laws.

LYNNE: The Spanish PM this week said something completely different about negative impact on British citizens which seems wholly unfair.

MICHAEL GOVE: I agree there are one or two foreign politicians who have tried to play the fear card in this debate but it is perfectly clear, the legal basis is that if you’re ordinarily resident and have legal right entitled to property in another European Union country then that will be respected and you can enjoy your retirement there and I hope have the opportunity to come back and see your children in this country and they can enjoy sharing a holiday with you.

KB: Okay, so you are absolutely 100% sure that if we choose to leave the European Union that France, Portugal, Germany, Spain and the rest would totally abide by supporting people like Lynne and the 118,000 other Brits that are living overseas?

MICHAEL GOVE:  Absolutely.  I think that people across the European Union will respect international law, of course they will.  I think a critical point here is that we and European Union nations, if we vote to leave instead of having a fractious relationship which let’s be honest we do have at the moment, we can then move to being friendly neighbours and I think far better than being a difficult lodger in a house that we didn’t design is being a great neighbour in a home that we can call our own and for that reason I think we will actually have better relations with other European nations and instead of trying to prevent them doing what they want to do with their future, say your destiny is in your hands, our destiny is in our hands, we’ve taken back control.  [Applause]

KB: Gentleman in the blue shirt.

MAN: Spain has threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, what would you do if they do?

MICHAEL GOVE: As soon as the votes are in on June 23rd, June 24th, if we voted to leave then we are in a different world as far as relations with these countries and I think they will recognise our democratic vote.  I don't think it’s the case that Spain having fought so hard to establish democracy is now going to show disdain for democracy and for the people of Gibraltar. One of the things about the position of people in any country where the British flag flies is that they know that their interests are best protected by a strong and confident and independent Britain so for that reason I think that the day afterwards we’ll find that some of those politicians and others who have been warning us and perhaps feeding project fear will respect a democratic vote in the home of democracy.

KB: Let’s bring in Geoffrey Wellington, Geoffrey is worried about his family’s future, he works at Port Talbot so I think you can probably guess what he does.  

GEOFFREY: Hello Mr Gove. I’ve been an electrician at Port Talbot steelworks for 26 years and the feeling there is they are going to decide our future after the EU referendum.  How should I vote to protect my job?  That’s on behalf of everybody that works in the steelworks in Britain.  

MICHAEL GOVE: My heart goes out to you and all your colleagues at the Tata Steelworks in Port Talbot.  I know that it’s central to a great community and that the people who work there have been doing a fantastic job against the odds and it’s terrible that your fate hangs in the balance but if we vote to leave the European Union one of the things we can do is to provide support for industries that are going through difficult times through no fault of the individuals working in them.  At the moment inside the European Union there are specific rules that prevent us providing that emergency support and assistance in the way that we might want to so one of the things that I would say is of course there are many, many issues to weigh up but if we vote to leave the European Union one of the things that we can do is that we will have additional flexibility to help those industries that really need it when that difficult day comes and people like yourself and your colleagues are facing problems that are none of your own doing.  

KB: Just to clarify that, would Tata Steel be saved if we were outside the European Union?  

MICHAEL GOVE: I think if we were outside the European Union, if we had been outside the European Union we would be able to support industries that were going through difficult times.  Now it may be the case that ...

KB: You would offer state aid to support Tata Steel, just to clarify?  

MICHAEL GOVE:  We could in certain circumstances.  

KB: As a Conservative?  

MICHAEL GOVE:  One of the things that I think of as a Conservative is that it is really important to recognise that the free market is not a God, it is really important that we try to do everything possible to make industries competitive, absolutely but there will be difficult times when industries go through strains and difficult periods, when the government can and should step in. Not on every occasion, not at every time but from time to time and that’s what being a democracy is about.  If we vote to leave we can take back control of the support that we give to industries and if we feel that it’s right at a given time then we can do that.  

KB: Thank you Mr Gove.  Let’s bring in Todd Cooper, Todd is a student at the University of Birmingham.  What’s your question, Todd?

TODD COOPER: I am a medical science student and I also volunteer in my local hospital and like everyone I am worried about the NHS.  Up to 80% of Trust leaders have said they are worried about staffing should we leave the EU, so wouldn’t a vote to leave the EU cause a staffing crisis in the NHS?

MICHAEL GOVE:  I absolutely don’t think so.  Everyone who is currently working in the NHS whether they have come from EU countries, come from abroad or are born and brought up here, their jobs will be protected, indeed their lives should be easier.  At the moment the NHS faces two big problems, it faces growing demand because we’ve got an ageing population.  Well that’s a good thing and we shouldn’t want to do anything about it but it also faces increasing demand because we have uncontrolled free movement from the European Union here and that has meant additional pressure on Accident and Emergency and additional pressure on GPs as well and one of the concerns that I have is that the European Union has a plan to allow five new nations with 88 million people – Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey – into the European Union.  If that happens inevitably the fact that our NHS which is unique in Europe because it’s free at the point of delivery, wonderfully so, will come under additional strain.  So I think that our NHS will be stronger if we leave the European Union and then invest some of the money that we can get back from Brussels making sure that those who really need it get the superb care which the NHS does day after day.  [Applause]

KB: Anne is a single parent and she wants to be able to help her 27 year old son.  Anne, what’s your question?

ANNE: Hello Mr Gove.  I’m worried about my son, I brought him up alone so all of my money, I wasn’t on benefits, I was lucky enough to work all the time, all of my money has gone on bringing him up.  I can’t help him moving forward, he is 27 years old, he is living at home with me, I love him but I want him to leave and stand on his own two feet!  

MICHAEL GOVE:  I know the feeling.  

ANNE: He works for himself, he is a self-employed builder, how can leaving the EU help him to buy his own home?  

MICHAEL GOVE:  Okay, well the first thing I want to say is single parents do a great job, the fact that you have raised your child on your own in that way is inspirational, but if we leave the European Union one of the things that will be easier for him to do is to find a job and find a home of his own.  It’s not just the National Health Service that suffers as a result of uncontrolled free movement, uncontrolled free movement has also driven wages down …

KB: Just to clarify, we are running out of time, are house prices going to go up or down as a result of us leaving, if we leave the EU?  

MICHAEL GOVE:  I think if we leave the European Union it will be easier for young people to get on the housing ladder …

KB: Up or down?  

MICHAEL GOVE: You can’t say … it will depend on the individual parts of the country but the critical thing is there will be less pressure on the housing overall. One of the problems that we have at the moment is that there is a lack of supply of housing and that has put house prices up.  

KB: That’s because so few houses have been built during the Conservative government.  [Applause]

MICHAEL GOVE: As it happens, house building under the Conservative government has been higher than during the last government but put that to one side, not enough houses have been built overall and one of the concerns that I have is that unfortunately as a result of uncontrolled …

KB: Mr Gove, we need 240 houses to be built a day for the next 20 years.  

MICHAEL GOVE: … uncontrolled free movement into this country it is more difficult for young people, including your son, to get onto the housing ladder.  

KB: We are slightly running out of time, Steve Bradshaw what’s your question?

STEVE BRADSHAW: Mr Gove, you and Boris have led the leave campaign.  When Mr Cameron steps down in the future are you considering a leadership bid?  

KB: Oh there we go, there’s the leadership question.

MICHAEL GOVE: I can tell you, absolutely not.  The one thing I can tell you is there are lots of talented people who could be Prime Minister after David Cameron but count me out.  

STEVE: You’re seen as the poster boy for the Conservative back benches, the Brexiteers.  

MICHAEL GOVE: I’ll tell you this, the one thing I would recommend is whatever posters you put up on your wall, don’t put one up of me!  I’m not the sort of person that you want to have when you wake up on your bedroom wall, I’ll tell you that.  The truth is of course people want to speculate about personalities but this issue is far more important than that.  This issue is about the future of our country and what sort of nation we want to be and I think instead of succumbing to the pessimism of the remain side, we should be optimistic and hopeful about our potential and I think that whoever leads this country in the future, they will have more freedom to do what’s right if we have left the European Union and then they have control of all of the leaders who can supercharge our country and make it the best country in the world in every regard.  [Applause]

STEVE: You have accused Mr Cameron of telling ghost stories to children in the past with all the negative spin, are you promising the world?  

KB: I’m sorry, we are running out of time but thank you very much all of you for your questions.  That’s our last question tonight Mr Gove.  

MICHAEL GOVE: Oh well thank you Kay and can I just say thank you to all of the audience.  This debate is so important, it really matters to all of us what we decide and I think instead of the pessimism of the Remain campaign we have an opportunity to think of the next generation. If we have faith in their talent, in their generosity, in their hard work, we can if we leave the European Union we can ensure the next generation make this country once more truly great.  [Applause]

KB: Mr Gove, thank you very much.