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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now in the Queen’s Speech this week the government looks set to announce further measures to enable fracking.  Fracking of course is the practice of drilling down into the earth to try and extract gas from shale.  It has been pretty controversial so far so how much should we look into it and rely on it and could it actually bring energy prices down.  In a moment I’ll speak to the Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint and the leader of the Green Party in England and Wales, Natalie Bennett.  Fracking for Labour, potentially untold billions here, energy security, all kinds of benefits but it is controversial.  What do Labour think about making it a little bit easier for these exploration companies to drill down if I can say it?

CAROLINE FLINT: First of all we should remind ourselves that gas is an important part of our energy mix, about 80% of our households rely on gas central heating so we’re going to need it for decades to come and getting it from our own shores and on land is not a bad idea because we’ve become a net importer of gas over the last decade or so but for fracking to go ahead we first and foremost have to be assured it is being done in a safe and sustainable way.

DM: So what are the assurances you need?

CAROLINE FLINT: Well we’ve laid out a number of tests if you like, environmental tests that we’ve asked the government to adopt, four of them they have done so but we are asking for more stringent benchmark testing the year before drilling starts so we can better, if you like measure what’s happening, for example methane in our water supply, better identify that from twelve months before to when fracking starts and methane does appear naturally within our water supply anyway but we need these benchmarks and that’s something they didn’t do in America and it caused a lot of controversy out there.  Likewise actually what do we learn from America about how we would do it differently?  In America they have these wide open plains, nobody lives nearby and it is a very different set of conditions.  Clearly we have shale gas underneath the land we stand on in all parts of the country but the truth is we also have populations living much closer so these I think are common sense proposals.

DM: You pose the questions but what are the answers?  We are going to see partially in the Queen’s Speech, this coming from the companies that want to drill down for shale gas, saying we cannot apply individually to each and every land owner to drill under their property. 

CAROLINE FLINT: And this is very important because for your viewers, clearly to get shale gas out of the ground is not just a pipe that goes vertically down, it goes out horizontally as well, it could go out for miles and miles and miles.  Now let’s be clear, when it comes to example coal, water and sewage, there are already access rights underground and the truth is, when it comes to shale recovery we’re talking about potentially a kilometre to two kilometres underground.  What the government I understand is proposing is that actually deeper than 300 metres then individual permissions should not apply but down to 300 metres they would still have to get planning permission and seek the authority of the land in which they are drilling on.  So it is about making sure this is safe but, importantly in all this Dermot, one of the problems I think we’ve got is the government has taken a tack to really hype up expectations about shale gas and I think only last week some geologists said actually it may be more difficult than we think even if it’s there to get it out of the ground.  I don't think the government has helped the debate and they have also posed shale gas against renewables and even against looking at bio gas, gas from waste, and that hasn’t helped the debate.  I think the public want a common sense approach to this, one that’s reasonable, that understands we need gas but if we are going to discover it through shale we do it safely.

DM: So when it comes to the drilling and the rigs that involves, compared to the United States how small our country is, the built up areas, is Labour going to have to say it’s interesting, let’s explore it but for some communities you’re going to have to accept that areas will have to be drilled into, it’s a bit like your housing programme. 

CAROLINE FLINT: It’s a bit like when we have underground activities for coal and water and sewage and don’t forget at the present time our gas and electricity pipelines only have to be one metre under the ground and we already have onshore oil that has been discovered so what we have got to make sure is that we have an open and transparent debate about this and that means for example where permission is sought, it’s not done in a secret way but is done in a transparent way.  There is some community benefit that comes back and I understand that’s going to be in the draft bill but importantly, we have to be sensible about this.  We’re talking about horizontal pipes probably one kilometre to two underground and that should be something we can work with and if shale gas can provide something into our mix I don't think we should set our face against it.    

DM: The important thing is being part of the mix.  Let me ask you some of the issues coming from your party’s performance in the Euro elections particularly the performance of UKIP and its effect on Labour and I was reading the former Deputy Prime Ministers, John Prescott, today in his column saying it does raise  those questions again for Labour about immigration and migration within the European Union and he said that Labour has to consider changing the freedom of movement within the European Union to fair movement, have you got a view on that?

CAROLINE FLINT: I think John Prescott speaks for a number of people who have concerns about the adverse impacts of migration and clearly they are out there in some form or another in some communities around the country.  That’s why we actually have laid out a series of proposals which are seeking to look at this, if you like the rights and responsibilities that come with freedom of movement.  Let me just give you an …

DM: But it’s happening now within the European Union but what would Labour do to make it fair and not free?

CAROLINE FLINT: And isn’t it a shame, Dermot, that in the last four and a half years for all the bluster, David Cameron hasn’t set out the agenda so let me give you a few concrete proposals that Labour is setting out there. One, that actually we should tackle British employers, and let’s be clear about this, British employers who are actually exploiting migrant labour from the European Union at the expense of British workers and that includes not paying the national minimum wage and all sorts of other conditions …

DM: But I saw an interview with a farmer the other day who pays the minimum wage and when asked whether he was turning away droves of British workers he said no, he said they were coming from Eastern Europe.

CAROLINE FLINT: I’m not talking about farmers who are acting appropriately, let’s be clear, active migration in many parts of our economy is an important thing, people coming from Portugal and elsewhere to come and work in our food production sector.  Secondly though we need to look at and reform the way in which migrant workers who come here from the EU are able to claim benefits for children back home and we don’t think that is reasonable and fair, I’m talking about child benefit, I’m talking about child tax credits.  Also we need to look at lengthening the time when people come into this country before they claim benefits because let’s be common sense about this, if they are coming to work they are coming to work.  So those are just three of the proposals which Labour has put on the table which we have said to the government that they need to put out there and be clear about what we are [inaudible] for and I think in that way we can tackle some of these concerns. 

DM: Can I ask you about your leader and some of the questions being asked about him and the polls showing he doesn’t seem to be performing perhaps as well as he could do.  Do you think part of that is the extraordinary interview he gave last week where he doesn’t read any papers, he doesn’t watch any news channels, all he reads is some American political website for policy wonks called Real Clear Politics.  You tweet, you read the papers don’t you?

CAROLINE FLINT: Yes, I do read the papers and I do tweet and actually Ed Miliband tweets as well  and what I would say, look at our proposals that we’ve got on the table that are dealing with people’s concerns about energy prices, about worries about childcare, about some of the concerns we have just been talking about immigration.  Our policies reflect the concerns of the country and that’s because we’ve got a leader who is in touch. 

DM: How can he be in touch?  He doesn’t read the papers and he doesn’t watch the TV?  Real ordinary people would find that extraordinary, they watch TV and read papers.

CAROLINE FLINT: He does watch the TV, I know because he was watching the Voice because he was tweeting during that for the guy that won it whose name escapes me at the moment but the guy who won it, he does watch TV. 

DM: He watches the Voice, he’s in touch.  Caroline thank you very much indeed.  Caroline Flint there Shadow Energy Secretary but let’s talk more about fracking now and other issues with the leader of the Green Party and Natalie Bennett joins me now.  Very good to talk to you and you have been congratulated I know on your party’s performance in the European elections. Can I ask you first of all, do you feel that was slightly overlooked given all the fuss there was about UKIP?

NATALIE BENNETT: I think it probably was.  We increased our number of MEPs, we now have three MEPs, our first MEP ever from the south-west region and we also had a strong performance in the local elections where we increased our number of councillors by 23, we are now the official opposition on Liverpool council, on Solihull council and a couple of councils in London and yes, there was very little attention paid to that. 

DM: Do you think some of that in some areas was due to concerns about issues like fracking?  What do you think of this proposal that we are expecting in the Queens’s Speech to allow those companies to drill under people’s properties without needing their permission?

NATALIE BENNETT: We are obviously opposed to that because we’re opposed to the whole idea of fracking and I think it is really a demonstration of how this government, which you might recall once claimed to be the greenest government ever which is now a very sad sick joke.  This government is concentrating on the fantasy of fracking when what it should be doing is catching up with the rest of the developed world on renewables which we are being left further and further behind on and also getting serious about energy conservation.

DM: But what’s wrong with fracking per se if it’s carried out with proper concern for the environment and those landowners and if you are very careful with CO2 emissions as part of a wider mix? Surely it’s something we should in this country exploit.

NATALIE BENNETT: Well first of all there is the issue of the fact that we have to leave at least 50% of our known fossil fuel reserves in the ground if we are going to avoid catastrophic climate change.  That’s not just me saying that, it’s the International Energy Agency, so what we need to be doing it working out how to do that, not going looking for more very marginal but there are also local communities who are rightly very concerned about issues of known environmental impacts.  We are talking about a lot of [blind] movements and a great deal of water use but also the risk of spills, the risk of leaks and also a lot of the proponents of gas are claiming this is lower emissions of coal but we are starting to see evidence from the States about methane leaks from wells that really is a grave cause for concern which means they could be at least as bad if not worse than coal.

DM: Talk to me about your ambitions in the Westminster parliament following on from your results in the European elections, as you say three MEPs, are you envisaging more than one MP in the next parliament?

NATALIE BENNETT: Obviously our first priority is going to be to retain Caroline Lucas our absolutely brilliant MP for Brighton Pavilion.  We are looking at the very strong showing we had last time in Norwich South and there are about ten seats around the country, one of which I might particular note is Bristol West which in the local election results we actually got the highest percentage of votes.  There are a number of seats around the country, in Oxford, in Liverpool, all round the country and in many places very clearly we are the opposition to whether it’s Labour or opposition to Tories in different areas so we are really going from strength to strength and I’m very excited about the fact that just in the last week we’ve had 500 people join the Green party and that reflects a very strong growth over the past year.  

DM: If you get a handful of seats and  you are going to be asked a lot about this I suppose as the election campaign builds, would you consider as a party playing a role in a coalition?  Could the Greens join with Labour for instance?

NATALIE BENNETT: Well  I think what we have to do is look at the circumstances at the time but our general inclination, rather than a coalition would be to look towards a confidence and supply agreement, maintaining stable government, saying that we would support a budget negotiation and government no confidence motions but maintaining the right to vote according to our principles, our policies on issues for example on tuition fees and that would be a strong way forward, a positive way forward and a principled way forward.

DM: But no coalition agreement, that’s a red line?

NATALIE BENNETT: No, I wouldn’t say that, it depends on the circumstances but the first thing we’d look towards would be a confidence and supply agreement.

DM: Okay, Natalie Bennett, very good to talk to you.  Natalie Bennett there, the leader of the Green Party there.