ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now if you are anything like a large proportion of the population you can’t wait for the World Cup to kick off but should you be allowed to come into work late or go home early to watch a game or take the next day off?  Should you be able to watch the games in the office perhaps?  If so, Sir Brendan Barber is on your side.  He’s a former union boss and he’s now the chairman of ACAS, the Arbitration and Conciliation Service, he says companies should look at ways to keep their workforce happy during the tournament.  Brendan joins me as does the comedian and football fan, Ian Royce.  Very good to see you gentlemen, so Brendan, how much slack should employers cut the World Cup fans amongst their employees?

BRENDAN BARBER:        Well it’s going to depends on what kind of business they’re running obviously.  There are businesses that need things done at certain times and of course they have got to keep their businesses working and working efficiently but there are a lot  of places where that kind of flexibility that you touched on in the introduction can be achieved.  People can juggle their lead, can perhaps move shifts, facilities could be provided in the workplace.  A lot of workplaces see it as a positive advantage, for example to make a television set available where that can fit in with the requirements of the job, to allow their workforce as a group to enjoy a big match.  It could be very, very good for morale, for productivity, for the atmosphere in the workplace where it’s possible to make sensible arrangements that help people enjoy the World Cup.

DM: Ian, have you got World Cup fever, is it bubbling up again?  We went into this tournament thinking we’ve just about qualified, we’re not going to do very well but now suddenly I detect we’re not going to do very well but we just might. 

IAN ROYCE: This is a Euro ’96 feeling I’ve got, it’s the same Venables feeling that we had back then and with the game the other day that we won so positively and Sturridge coming on fire, those three goals …

DM: Against the Peru B team.

IAN ROYCE: They were a big B team.  That’s the thing with England, whoever we play and we win, suddenly we’re going to win the World Cup.  I think it’s a great idea that work places are going to get involved because the sick days are going to come aren’t they?  O2 did a survey during the Olympics and they said 3000 of their workers were on flexible working so they were working from home and a third of those workers said they worked far more productively at home when the company were allowing them to do that.  Now here’s the thing, this is football okay, now we’re in hangover city.  

DM: The first game with England which is where the fever is really going to break out is against Italy at eleven pm in the evening and David Cameron has said he is going to allow the pubs to stay open so what about the next day, what about the day after?

BRENDAN BARBER: Well the Prime Minister is obviously buying into World Cup fever.  

DM: But a serious question, should employers say, okay we won’t dock you a day’s pay if you don’t turn up or not?  

BRENDAN BARBER: Look, companies have proper policies on managing things like sickness absence and of course those policies need to operate and people have got to be sensible.  You do have obligations to your employer of course and so on but what our advice is about is just think ahead and think creatively about ways of meeting all those requirements but in a way that gives people a chance to really enjoy what the World Cup is, a fantastic sporting event.  

DM: So they can afford to be flexible.  

IAN ROYCE: I think the point we are missing here is really quite a valid point, that not everybody is into the World Cup.  I mentioned this to my wife this morning and she said can I get a week off for London Fashion Week and once you set the precedent, once companies say we’re going to give you flexible working time for the World Cup that doesn’t mean that everybody is into the World Cup.  Other employees might say, hang on a minute, it’s pigeon racing in Blackpool next week.   

DM: I am thinking Ian is reading my list of questions!  Come back on that Sir Brendan, it sets a precedent.  

BRENDAN BARBER: l don’t think it does set a precedent because at previous World Cups and Olympics people have …

DM: But like Ian said, if somebody says I’m a big fan of pigeon racing, it’s the pigeon derby or whatever it is, give me time off.  

BRENDAN BARBER: Well that makes very good sense, if flexibility is sensibly achievable while meeting the needs of the business, then of course.  I mean flexible working has been coming in a big way in recent years, more and more employers have realised where it’s possible to accommodate all the other things that people are interested in, the demands of family life alongside their obligations to their workplace, it makes sense to do that.  It makes happier works, more productive workers, better morale in workplaces, it’s a win-win agenda.

DM: But don’t you think if people aren’t showing up after the England game, whether it is win or lose, and are flexibly working from home, aren’t they lying in bed and thinking I wish I hadn’t had that extra pint?

IAN ROYCE: If you had some employees and it was the England game and you said we are going to give you flexible working and England beat Italy or perhaps in the later stages and we win, they are not going to turn up at eight in the morning, or indeed get out of bed at eight in the morning to do some flexible working at home.  I mean I wouldn’t, would you?   Would you be flexibly working from home after an England win?  Probably not.  I think the important thing for me is case by case and each company needs to look at it and how they can get the most out of their employees.  It is the Word Cup, World Cup fever will hit if we beat Italy in the first game, no doubt every front page will have us winning the World Cup, there’ll be a buzz and a vibe.  I love that David Cameron has opened up pubs later so people can enjoy that, especially for the first game of course because it rolls into a Sunday and it’s a real vibe and excitement but not everybody loves the World Cup, we mustn’t forget that.  

DM: So Brendan, the overall message, would you say you have disciplinary practices in your organisation and these are transgressed due to World Cup fever you’d say go easy, interpret them very generously?   

BRENDAN BARBER: The overall message is look, think ahead, for employers to think ahead.  It could be about the way you manage leave, it could be about the flexible working arrangements you’ve got, it could be about access to TV, it could be about access to the internet – what are the rules in the workplace where people are looking to follow games on the internet?  It’s not just England supporters who will be captivated over this next month you know, in this country we have got people from I imagine every nation competing in Brazil.

DM: Just in London.   

BRENDAN BARBER: So be sensible, try and think ahead and anticipate what problems could arise, think what benefits could be secured where you meet the needs of your workforce to really enjoy and take advantage of this great tournament.  

DM: You’d have to discipline yourself if you transgress as a self-employed person.

IAN ROYCE: I will certainly send myself to the naughty corner.  I used to have a boss you know who used to give all his employees a duvet day, one a year and it was the one day you could phone in and say I’m having my duvet day, so you didn’t need to lie, you didn’t need to say you were sick, everybody got a duvet day so if companies turn round and say you have got one World Cup day and if you don’t support the World Cup you can take that at any time.     

DM: I like that idea, could you endorse that?

BRENDAN BARBER: We’ve not fully considered that one.

DM: I’ll be on Question Time after this.  

BRENDAN BARBER: We’ve got a tube issue coming up.

IAN ROYCE: I’d happily deal with that.

DM: To be continued.  Ian, Brendan, thank you very much indeed, some very good suggestions there.