ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, before the break I spoke to Labour’s Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper and she told me that the government’s cuts to police budgets have had, quote, ‘a shocking impact on frontline police officers’. Well the Conservative MP and Police Minister, Nick Herbert, joins me now from Arundel in Sussex and a very good morning to you, Mr Herbert. These are the figures in black and white, you now can’t deny it, 5,200 fewer first response officers than when you came into power.

NICK HERBERT: Well actually we don’t recognise these figures, they’re not official figures and I always think it’s better to wait for the official audited figures to come out and the report from the Independent Inspectorate of Constabulary but we already did know that the overall number of officers was falling, that’s never been in dispute and the official figures showed last year that it was about 4% and the key question is, are we protecting the frontline and the quality of the frontline service? What we also know is that there are round about 25,000 officers who aren’t on the frontline, they are in the behind the scenes functions, we have always said that that’s too many and the challenge for forces is to ensure that, as they do have to adapt to dealing with tighter budgets, they are effectively redeploying, they are making best use of their officers and putting them on the front line.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: That’s the aspiration but I’m baffled, how can you deny this? You’re clearly not protecting frontline services, this is Freedom of Information, verified by the House of Commons Library, 23 forces out of 43 responded so it could be a lot worse, 5200 fewer first response officers – you’re not protecting the frontline.

NICK HERBERT: Well it’s very telling that you are saying we weren’t protecting the frontline service, you see I disagree with that because that’s to suggest that it’s all about the raw numbers but of course it’s about what those officers are doing and how available they are for duties. The Independent Inspectorate of Constabulary pointed out for instance that there were more officers available on a Monday than there were on a Friday so things like improving deployment, reducing the bureaucracy that actually keeps officers away from the streets, all of the things that we know chief officers are doing, can actually improve the frontline service. It really can’t just be about the numbers, it’s about how free those officers are and actually I think the very telling thing about Yvette Cooper’s interview was that she was trying to claim that all this meant that crime was going up but the inconvenient truth for Labour is that is simply not the case. In fact the official figures showed that crime is falling, that the majority of forces are continuing to deal with crime, effectively even as they are dealing with the reduced budgets. I think the question that Yvette Cooper found difficult to answer also was given that Labour is committed to the same scale of funding reductions as we are, they actually are signed up to the same level of cuts – that has become clear as they signed up to the pay freeze and changes in procurement, they’re not signed up to a lesser amount of cuts but their programme too would mean reducing public spending, it does mean a smaller workforce and actually I think it is shameful hypocrisy of Labour to be campaigning against this when they themselves would be reducing the number of officers.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well exactly so within one answer are you saying yes, officers are going down and Labour should accept that because they would have done it too and you know I explored that with Yvette Cooper or are you saying that officer numbers on the frontline are not going down? A lot of people will be baffled just listening to that answer. Do you accept that those first response officers, there are fewer of them than May 2010 when you came into power?

NICK HERBERT: Well I really think it is appalling actually to suggest to people, and clearly Labour are scaremongering here, that somehow if you dial 999 you are not going to get the same response from the police, where is the evidence that …

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: But they’re not saying that, they’re just saying that there aren’t as many of them.

NICK HERBERT: … and actually, with the greatest respect, that is exactly what Yvette Cooper tried to suggest in her Sun on Sunday column this morning, that’s exactly what she is trying to suggest. She has tried to suggest that crime is going up when in fact they are committed to reducing spending too and what we’re saying is that it is quite possible to reduce budgets, to look again at how officers are deployed, to deal with the fact that there are this very large number in behind the scenes functions that actually is too big a number and make sure that we are redeploying effectively and protect the quality of the frontline service. My judgement is that’s exactly what police forces are doing up and down the country and we know that the proportion of the workforce on the frontline is actually increasing. We expect the visibility and the availability of police officers, which surely is the key measure, to increase and we know that crime is continuing to come down. It’s very interesting that last week Yvette Cooper was on the programmes saying oh no, she disagreed with those Chief Constables, including the forces she cited today, who are trying to innovate so that they could release police officers for the frontline duties, that was wrong she said. We don’t want any use of the private sector to do behind the scenes functions, despite the fact of course that Labour introduced that in the last government, that didn’t concern here. Last week she was saying that she wanted officers doing these behind the scenes functions, this week she’s saying that there aren’t enough on the frontline – which one is it?

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Right, well let’s put to you some of those which it is. Let’s get to the background to this, this is happening, you are prepared to see overall police numbers falling and I understand the proportion on the frontline, that measurement on … No, you’ve had your say, just a minute, just let me put this to you. There is an ideological belief within government, isn’t there, that there is no simple link between police numbers and the level of crime?

NICK HERBERT: Well as I said to you, we know that the numbers are falling, I said to you the official figures show it is 4% last year, so let’s just get that in context. There are still something like 135,000 police officers – and by the way that is about the same number as in the mid-term of the last Labour government so were they suggesting then that 999 calls weren’t answered and so on? That’s clearly nonsense but at the same time as this has happened, actually crime has been falling. The official figures show that, the majority of forces continue to tackle crime effectively. There are some areas that need improvement and chief constables know that and from November this year there are going to be elected Police and Crime Commissioners who will be responsible for ensuring that crime is driven down and who will be accountable to the public. I don't think that it’s acceptable for a political party that is actually committed to the cuts, that itself had responsibility for the economic mess that requires us to reduce spending, that says that it won’t reverse the cuts, that is actually opposed to the policy that will get officers on the frontline then to be campaigning against the cuts. It is shameful hypocrisy and it is also quite wrong to scare the public and suggest that there’s some kind of reduction in the police service or reduction in 999 responsiveness, there is no evidence for that. Police forces continue to do the job. Yes, it is challenging times, we all know that but to campaign in this way, I think it is absolutely shameful.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Okay Mr Herbert, thank you very much indeed. Nick Herbert there.