ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Voting in the European elections begins in ten days’ time and Britain’s party leaders are travelling all over the country to try to win votes.  The election is particularly important for the Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg, he is of course a committed Europhile and is campaigning as the leader of the ‘Part of In’ as he puts it, a bold move considering the gains that Nigel Farage is making by arguing that Britain should leave the EU.  Well I caught up with Mr Clegg this week on the campaign trail on the train from London to his constituency in Sheffield.

Mr Clegg, nice to see you, how are you?  Thank you very much indeed. So we’re on the way to Sheffield.

NICK CLEGG: We are, yes.

DM: I suppose you must be very used to this, obviously you are.

NICK CLEGG: Every week, every week, yes, yes.

DM: Well let’s talk about the Euro elections, you know the polling, the Lib Dems are way, way down there in single figures.  Is that because the electorate perceive the Liberal Democrats to be too enthusiastic about the European Union and you are such cheerleaders for the EU they don’t want to vote for you?

NICK CLEGG: I think there are other reasons why clearly the opinion polls haven’t been as strong for us in recent times, I don't think it is just to do with the Euro elections but do you know what, I think sometimes when a really big fault line opens up in British politics you just can’t mess about and there is now really quite a big fault line, about whether you’re in or you’re out.  Of course we can then have a whole other debate about how you reform it, what’s wrong with it, what’s right with it, how you improve it, it’s a rather fundamental debate rather like Scotland and the United Kingdom, it is a fundamental debate, do you basically think we are in or we’re out and on that one I think there is no point beating about the bush.

DM: It’s a red line, it’s a matter of principle and you are more or less saying to hell with polling, this is something I believe in and I’m sticking by it. 

NICK CLEGG: The reason I feel so strongly about this, it’s not because I’m some sort of starry-eyed pro-European fanatic, it’s not because I like the European Union as such, it’s because I am passionate pro-British and I don’t see how we can provide the British people with the jobs in the future, I don’t see how we can get investment into economy, I don't know how we can be relevant in the world, I don't know how we can deal with climate change across borders, I don't know how we are going to go after with criminals across borders, I don't know how we are going to stand tall in places like Washington and Beijing if we don’t stand tall in places like Brussels and Berlin.  I think it’s right for the country, I really passionately do and I think the kind of view that you’re now getting from UKIP, from large parts of the Conservative party and stuff – and by the way, their views have gone unchallenged for two decades now so we’re not going to change that debate within a few days and weeks, we’ve got to start the argument – but their view is all about turning the clock back, it’s all about hankering after a past that probably didn’t exist and I think we should be a lot more positive and upbeat about the way things are for Britain.

DM: You touched on the nature of reform in the European Union and even people out there in the countryside who say okay, of course I want to stay in the European Union but I want reform …

NICK CLEGG: Yes, so do I.

DM: … so I’m not going to vote for the Liberal Democrats because they’re taking it lock, stock and barrel and I’ll vote for one of the parties, I don’t want to vote for UKIP but I’ll vote for one of the other parties who are talking about reform. 

NICK CLEGG: There are many myths around.  There is a myth that the EU is a vast gargantuan bureaucracy, in fact the European Commission is smaller than  Derbyshire County Council, although we sent £15 million …

DM: It’s got a bigger budget though.

NICK CLEGG: Well actually, what is it?  The total budget is about 1% of EU GDP, our own national budget is just shy of 40% GDP so there are a lot of myths and one of the biggest myths of all is if you are in favour of our membership of the European Union you’re not in favour of change.  I’ve done it, I’ve actually been there, I’ve actually changed things which is more than Ed Miliband or David Cameron, I’ve actually been.  Of course you’ve got to change it.  We’ve just succeeded for instance – and very few people know about this – we’ve just succeeded, not least because of the campaigning efforts of Liberal Democrat MEPs, to totally overhaul the Common Fisheries Policy and stop this nonsense of chucking fish discards overboard.  We’ve cut the EU budget by £30 billion, I’ve been campaigning for years to stop the monthly migration of MEPs between Brussels and Strasbourg, so if you are pro our membership of the European Union of course you are pro-reform but to win that argument you have got to be in it, to win it you’ve got to be in it.

DM: What about these fundamental issues that people are really concerned about – migration from the east of Europe – you can do nothing about that as a Liberal Democrat, you have no concerns about Bulgarians and Romanians coming here?

NICK CLEGG: I have a lot of concerns about making sure that the rules are fair so that people can’t just turn up here from elsewhere in Europe and access benefits, no questions asked, no strings attached from day one and that’s why I’ve actually been one of the leading proponents of saying we have got to tighten up the rules.  Yes, freedom to look for work and make a contribution but not freedom to claim and I think the freedom to travel around Europe is a huge benefit … can I make the point?

DM: Well I just want to make that point because you made the point to Nigel Farage very clearly about that very issue, that very few of the migrants who come here from the European Union do actually come here to claim, that’s one of those myths.

NICK CLEGG: Nonetheless, I think it’s right to address the perception, there is a feeling that the rules aren’t fair, even if they are not being abused on a very large scale it is still right that we change them to make sure there is absolutely no risk of people simply turning up here to claim benefits, no questions asked but – here’s the big thing – the freedom to move around Europe, to look for work, to set up shop, to go and study elsewhere, actually is a freedom for lots of British people appreciate and value.  There are roughly the same number of Brits that have gone on to live and work elsewhere in the European Union as there people who have come over from the European Union to us so it is a two way street.  All I would say is that if we were to put up the barrier, if we were to put up the ‘Go Away’ sign at the cliffs of Dover, what happens to all the people who are living in Spain, what happens to all the Brits who go and study or work in Germany?  It is a two way street so what I think is let’s protect the freedom to move because that’s a good freedom that we benefit from as well as a country, but not allow that to become a freedom to claim.

FROM CLEGG/FARAGE DEBATE:

NIGEL FARAGE: If we are members of the European Union we have the complete free flow of people, are you denying that?

NICK CLEGG: Yes, it is not unqualified …

NIGEL FARAGE: You are denying it?

DM: Does it frustrate you that people don’t seem to be listening to that message?  You made a lot of those points to Nigel Farage in those debates you had and he was widely seen to have been given a boost by it.   Do you regret doing that?

NICK CLEGG:  No, no, I don’t regret doing the debates at all.  You are quite right, the polls suggest that more people thought that he was making a good case than I was.  That doesn’t entirely surprise me, this is a steady daily drum beat of extraordinary levels of myth making and misinformation about what our position in Europe means for years and years and years. I’m not going to change that singlehandedly, no single debate with Nigel Farage is going to change that.  I have an old fashioned view that if you want to win an argument you at least have got to have the courage to have that argument and that’s why I’m so genuinely…

DM: But you’re not going to win this argument are you?

NICK CLEGG: I think in the long run we will actually, actually I think in the long run we will.  We’ve got to start somewhere and if David Cameron and Ed Miliband choose to sit on their hands and not make the case, at least I’m going to because of all the reasons I have explained to you.  I am particularly dismayed about how on earth Ed Miliband is supposed to lead a party that begins in progressive internationalist values when he’s taken a Trappist vow of silence on one of the big issues of our day and at the end of the day, you can duck and weave with the opinion polls, you can duck and weave with what focus groups tell you but at the end of the day I think people will respect you, even if they don’t entirely agree with you, they’ll respect you if you stick to your guns because you believe that that’s right for the country and that’s certainly what I’m trying to do, my party is trying to do in these elections.

DM: Mr Clegg, tell me about your disagreement with the Conservatives about this knife crime initiative, the second offence you face a mandatory jail sentence.  You’re opposing that, how can you pick the wrong issue to oppose the Conservatives? 

NICK CLEGG: If you want to be smart about crime you’ve got to stop the revolving door of crime and I think a measure designed to capture newspaper headlines which will have the effect of forcing judges to put let’s say a young girl who is a junior member of a gang, who has been forced to carry a penknife to be a member of the gang, to force her into prison for a few weeks so that she then becomes a more hardened criminal later is self-defeating.  What I clearly want to know, and this was as debate we were having within government and then someone, I think quite foolishly, decided to publish some of the internal letters which of course circulate in government when you debate these things.

DM: Someone from the Justice Department?

NICK CLEGG: I don't know where it comes from and no doubt I’ll never find out but clearly an aggrieved Conservative but the point is, once it was out in the open I felt it right to explain – because you are right, it is not at first glance a particularly fashionable thing to say, why I think that we shouldn’t go back to the bad old days of New Labour where there was just constant tub thumping and actually we saw funding go through the roof. 

DM: Talk to me about another very, very important poll coming up a bit later which is of course the Scottish referendum on independence.  Do you think in a way the no campaign, the Better Together campaign led by Alistair Darling and we hear that Lord Brown is going to take a bigger role, do you think they messed up really by attacking the yes campaign which has now been turned around?

NICK CLEGG: No, I don’t actually.  I am a real admirer of what Alistair Darling has done and I think he and the Better Together campaign have done a really good job.  I don't think that at the end of the day, there might be a very small people who will vote who like the look of one person more than another person but I think the vast, vast, vast majority of people will vote for what they think is right for their families, for their communities, for the future of the community in the country they live in and on that I think it is right, as I say, for first the Better Together campaign to set out what’s at stake and secondly, for all of us to say, even those of us who don’t have a vote, that we want Scotland to stay, we really hope Scotland will stay because there is so much we can do together that we couldn’t do apart.  The only other thing I would add by the way is I think it’s always important to remember that if the Scottish people vote, as I fervently hope they will, to remain in the United Kingdom, of course that’s not the end of the story for the devolutionists, that’s the great thing.  If Scotland decides to stay in the United Kingdom then I think horizons open up about further devolution to  Edinburgh, further devolution to the Scottish administration in Holyrood.

DM: Well let me ask you about an existential threat to a company, this is obviously talking about AstraZeneca.  If Pfizer buy AstraZeneca, if they do, then four years down the line they come along to whoever’s in government and say actually we’re having some really big economic difficulties, you know those assurances we gave you, well actually we do have to close a plant and there’s nothing you can do about it.

NICK CLEGG: Well exactly and that’s the balance that would need to be struck because in one sense no one can predict the future but on the other hand I think bitter experience in the other context has taught us about the importance of really pinning these kind of commitments down and not just allowing them to rest as aspirations, making sure that they are exacting binding commitments.  Now there are various ways that that could be made more solid, if you like, and that is exactly the sort of thing that we are discussing.   If they choose to go ahead with the bid and, as I say, I don't think it’s right to do what Ed Miliband appears to suggest which is to go back to the 70s where you start hand-picking which company you like, which deal you like.  I do think it’s right for us as a government to say look, we care about the science base, we are putting a lot of taxpayers money into the science sector and it is one of the areas that has been protected rather than cut in recent year.  We do care about research, we do care about life sciences, therefore we have a legitimate public interest to make sure that any commitments surrounding that are really abided by.

DM: You mentioned Ed Miliband again there, he of course says he is intellectually self-confident. Given all we’ve discussed today, it seems you are intellectually self-confident as well, would you describe yourself that way?

NICK CLEGG: Do you know what, I tend to leave other people to describe me rather than coming up with some autobiographical versions of it.  Look, I think it’s important to be positive, as long as you have a relatively thick skin, but you’ve also got to … there is so much ebb and flow in politics.

DM: You’ve got to have a brain, you’ve got to have ideas, you’ve got to be able to express them, that’s intellectual self-confidence isn’t it?

NICK CLEGG: Actually the most important thing is to have values you believe in and it might sound a bit trite but it is really, really important.  There are certain basic values of fairness, of internationalism, being open not closed, being confident about the country and not always wanting to turn the clock back but I’ve always had, and it’s important you stick to your values …

DM: You sit there in Prime Minister’s Questions and I bet you’re biting your tongue when you see those exchanges, who do you think is more intellectually self-confident?

NICK CLEGG: I wouldn’t even try to adjudicate but you’re right, it is frustrating having to sit there while the two of them sort of knock seven bells out of each other, I’d like to get up and probably join in sometimes.

DM: Have you been told, I mean it is Prime Minister’s Questions, technically you could stand up and catch the Speaker’s Eye, if you agreed with Mr Cameron.

NICK CLEGG: I think two politicians yelling at each other is more than enough for the British public, to have three yelling at each other would probably tip them over the edge so I’m not going to do that. 

DM: The Leaders’ debates for the General Election, we’ve heard this coming out of Downing Street, out of Number Ten, that there could be a different format from last time round, not shouting at each other but you could have five party leaders initially, then the three of you and then you left out for the big one.

NICK CLEGG: It’s based on the rather quaint idea that it’s up to Number Ten to decide how these debates are assembled, it’s actually up to the broadcasters at the end of the day to decide.  Look, I think the formula last time worked, I think people found it an important innovation and both myself and Ed Miliband believe let’s at least start with that, start with what worked last time.  I think playing endless cat and mouse with this is a bit tedious, I mean can we just get on with it?  Many people want to be able to compare the different party leaders.

DM: So three of you, same as last time?

NICK CLEGG: The point about having David Cameron, Ed Miliband and myself is that we are the three leaders of the main Westminster parties, we are three leaders that one way or another may be part of the next government.  I don’t think anyone seriously thinks that Caroline Lucas and Nigel Farage will but the more the merrier, I don’t actually care too much as long as we get on and actually have a debate where people can compare and contrast the different values and policies and ideas of the different political leaders of the day.

DM: So off the train and on to the campaign trail for Mr Clegg who joins his local Lib Dem MEP for some leafleting and door knocking in a leafy area of Sheffield.  Unsurprisingly a friendly reception here but is this canvassing having any effect?

NICK CLEGG: What we are finding, and I suspect this will come out in the results, is where we are not able to tell our side of the story, that is where we don’t have people doing what I am doing now, knocking on doors, frankly it is difficult to get the Lib Dem message across because no one does it for us.  Where we’re able to get out and about in communities as we do week in week out, day in and day out, people in those areas, in other words in areas where we have MEPs, MPs, where we have councillors, we tend to do much better because people hear our side of the story and when they do, when they hear about the things we’ve achieve in government, not everybody but a lot of people say we’re going to stick with you and that’s what I hope you’ll find in an area like this.  I remember last year there was a local by-election in the heart of my constituency and the Labour party said we are going to thump Nick Clegg, you know, all the rest of it and we doubled our majority.  So when we get out there and tell our side of the story, people are prepared to listen.  

DM: And that’s the message we hear again and again from Nick Clegg but will it strike a cord with the voters?  Will the Lib Dems find that being the ‘Party of In’ will eventually lead to them being out of power?  Nick Clegg there in Sheffield.