ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: More than 50 Labour MPs could it’s reported rebel against their new leader by backing some form of military action by Britain in Syria, that’s the front page in today’s Observer newspaper. Well joining me to discuss than and the rest of the day’s top stories are the former England footballer Sol Campbell, Clare Short who served as International Development Secretary under Tony Blair and the social activist, Nimco Ali, who is also a member of the Women’s Equality Party.  A very good morning to you all, thank you very much indeed for volunteering for the task. Kick us off Clare with this story on the front of the Observer, more than 50 Labour MPs to defy Corbyn on vote on Syria.  It could be difficult for Jeremy Corbyn if it does go that way but what’s your view overall on this question?

CLARE SHORT: My view is that this is irrelevant to what’s happening in Syria which is a complete disaster and whether Britain bombs or not, we’ve got some planes bombing in Iraq, the Iraq part that’s occupied by ISIS.  If some of them bomb in Syria it won’t change anything and the truth is it’s a disaster and we have no solution and even Russia joining in gives you a chance to have some talks, get some transitional way of stabilising the regime, stop ISIS spreading but now we’re just attacking Russia.  So this is significant for the Labour party but it shows a complete muddle of a debate in Britain and no honesty about the nature of the problem whereas in one of the other papers there’s a piece by Max Hastings saying like it or not, you need to stabilise the Assad regime to stabilise the country to deal with the ISIS threat first and you can’t say, oh we don’t like Assad, we’ll get rid of him, we didn’t like Gaddafi, get rid of him, we didn’t like Saddam Hussein, get rid of him and create just mess and turbulence everywhere which is what we’re doing.  

DM: Do you go along with Max Hastings, it’s very much …

CLARE SHORT: He’s very much a Tory military commentator, yes and Patrick Coban who writes the best of all in my view, he writes in the Independent on the Middle East, said this is just nonsense and this is Britain pretending to be a player when it’s not.  We’ve got a few planes bombing in Iraq, if a few of them also bomb in Syria nothing changes whatsoever and yet we have a big hoo-hah and a rebellion in the Labour party and so what, so what?

DM: And that’s the point, Sol Campbell, isn’t it?  It’s not as if the Americans have come to the United Kingdom, the Americans who are bombing in Syria who say we have loads of targets that we can’t bomb because we haven’t got enough resources, of course they have got plenty of resources and more.  This is a political tactic is it not by the Conservatives to embarrass Jeremy Corbyn?

SOL CAMPBELL: I think it’s all about balance and getting everybody talking because there is so much happening over there.  He is running the show, that’s the main thing, we’ve got to have some cohesive understanding, who’s in the team.  There’s Russia, there’s America, there’s all sorts of people involved here, all sorts of countries involved, they are bombing all over the place, we do not where, people are bombing in probably the wrong places.  This cannot continue, we’ve got to come together and almost build a team and discover what’s wrong, who’s the culprit, are we getting rid of Assad, are we getting rid of the President there, I don't know because it is so confusing for me.

DM: And the public.  Sol, bring us your first story, about the NHS and there’s no doubt that there is a cash crisis, I’ve heard it described as a cash crisis like no other within the National Health Service, that it is creaking in some places at the seams and something might give.  

SOL CAMPBELL: This is a fantastic thing, we’ve got to look after the NHS, we have to look after it.  Reading some of the stories, almost a billion pounds into the first few months, that is just astronomical the amount, where is it going?  I think we’ve got to have a proper conversation in the end to say yes, we pay our taxes but then in the end money has to somehow kind of change hands.

DM: But what is that conversation?  Would you like to pay even more taxes to make sure the NHS is okay?

CLARE SHORT: What do you mean even more?  We’re cutting taxes.  

DM: Well the basic rate.

SOL CAMPBELL: I’m not in the Minister’s office and finding out but there  has got to be some type of conversation to happen with us as  UK, what do we have to pay?  Do we have to pay a little bit extra, if we come into hospitals or whatever do we have to pay?  Even if it is 50p or a pound, who knows, I don’t know the figure but I think we have to get to that stage.  

DM: You are talking about charging, removing the idea that it is free at the point of delivery for all.  

CLARE SHORT: One of the biggest things is we’ve got an ageing population, people are ill more and then they are stuck in hospital because there’s no way of getting them out because they are cutting local government money so the caring at home budget is going down so it is pretending we are protecting the National Health but cutting other things that puts more pressure on the National Health.  Our service is still cheaper than any other international system because the administrative costs are so cheap so the government will say they are protecting the National Health but we’re cutting taxes on everything else.  This is a crisis and we have to choose what we want.  

DM: And as you say Sol, back to the public and have an open conversation, they must make the choice.  The next story is a point made by Andy Burnham, this Immigration Bill that is going to put an obligation upon landlords to check the backgrounds of people they are renting to and if they are immigrants, well they’re in trouble.  

CLARE SHORT: No, that’s not fair, Andy Burnham is saying that’s what it used to be.  

DM: Andy Burnham is pointing that out, the dangers to Theresa May.  

CLARE SHORT: My father was Irish and when we were little he would point to those cards saying ‘No coloureds’ as they called black people then, ‘No coloured, no Irish’.  

DM: Do you remember that?

CLARE SHORT: I do.  I was little but he’d say ‘Look at this’ to us.  People are going to say ‘No migrants, no refugees’ because they don’t want to break the law.  The new legislation says it will be a criminal offence for landlords to rent to people who don’t have proper status in the country so they become immigration enforcers, that’s the whole point.  

DM: He was just making the point that landlords are just going to be very, very careful and say, well your name sounds a bit different, it might probably come from overseas somewhere, you might be an illegal immigrant, I’d better rent it to somebody who sounds like they’re not.  

CLARE SHORT: It is better to have the conversations when the legislation is being considered.  

SOL CAMPBELL: We need to go from moving hair, moving there, it’s almost as if the government wants us to be the police force there.  It may be the workforce, if you’ve got a business and you’ve got to watch who you’re employing and now it has obviously shifted on to housing.  It’s all about conversation and trying to understand, there is a humanity side to it but we’ve got to be careful that we don’t go to the stages of back in the days of ‘No coloured, no Irish’, there has to be a balanced kind of argument there and understanding as well.  

DM: Clare, the front page of the Times and Jeremy Corbyn and his walking boots.  

CLARE SHORT: Yes, this is about him supposedly avoiding swearing his membership of the Privy Council because he went walking and had a soft drink in a pub instead and I just think it’s another little piece of hysteria and it really doesn’t matter. I’m a Privy Councillor and it really doesn’t make any difference and the process for being one is twelve little red stools and you have to kneel on this one and move to that one and then kneel on that one and kiss the Queen’s hand and it is very silly.  

DM: But you are republican with a small r, do you think ultimately we should remove the constitutional monarchy?

CLARE SHORT: No, I think the Queen is better than elected President, imagine if Blair had been elected President or Thatcher, it would have been even worse.  

DM: But Jeremy Corbyn is not a monarchist …

CLARE SHORT: No, I’m sure he will do it but my generation, the women used to have to curtsy so we got rid of that and just bent our head.  I do think they need to update all these little stools and you can do a respectful thing to the Queen without …

DM: But it also says in that article that if he wants to become a member of the Privy Council he does have to meet the Queen.  He may not have to bow and kiss her hand but do you think he should do it?

CLARE SHORT: She is a witty, funny, interesting woman and I’m sure she would be well up for amending the way it’s done.

DM: Exactly but would you say to Jeremy, turn up?

CLARE SHORT: I bet you he will do it because if they are sharing intelligence on international events, you have to be in.   No one says he is not turning up, this is a non-story.  He went hiking so they say he stood up the Queen but there was no arrangement to do it.  

DM: He does seem to be rather hand’s off at the moment doesn’t it, rather laid back.

CLARE SHORT: I agree with that but this is a non-story.  But it’s quite funny and I think people ought to know what a silly ceremony it is.  

DM: We’ve got that, thanks Clare, thanks for the insight.  Now Sol I want you to cast your eye over this, I know you already have.  What is going on with FIFA?  It finally seems after such a long time to be reaching to the very top.

SOL CAMPBELL: Well it’s the FBI, they kind of started it.  Yes, there has been some fantastic work in the Times and other papers and it’s all unravelling slowly but surely but when you look at it, it’s just incredible, it’s immense how deep it goes.  I don't think we actually know how deep it goes, who knows, I think all of them could be implicated or involved.  Hopefully not but where it stands now, where does FIFA go?  I don't know, I really don’t know where they can go.  

CLARE SHORT: They should close it down and start again.  

SOL CAMPBELL: They can’t do that or there’d be chaos.

CLARE SHORT: You can.  

SOL CAMPBELL: If you are going to change it, I think some people are going to have a little bit of dirt on them but it depends what type of dirt.  Sometimes it is kind of incidental things, other times – when you look at Platini, he looks like he has the ability and stature to take over but then he has got his £1.3 million payment hanging over him.

DM: That’s a basic thing and I am not talking directly about FIFA here but any organisation that is awash with cash as FIFA is and doesn’t seem to have very good oversight of who has the cash, who is in charge of the cash, where the cash goes, then it can develop problems.

SOL CAMPBELL: Yes, it can if you don’t manage it but for me FIFA can continue but I think there should be another body just looking over the finances to make sure that this, whilst it is cleared out in a couple of years’ time or whenever it is cleared, looks at it so this scenario does not happen again.  

DM: MP’s to look into Watson’s letter on rape case, this is the deputy leader of the Labour party who used parliamentary privilege to make some pretty strong accusations about some high profile people including Lord Brittan who has now passed away.  

CLARE SHORT: The police failed to tell Leon Brittan before he died that he has been cleared. I mean that is shocking, he was dying from cancer, imagine what it is for his family. That’s a more serious criticism in my view but now it’s all about Tom Watson.  

DM: Listen, I’m sorry we’re out of time.  Thank you very much for taking us through those stories, very good to see you.