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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Syrian forces unleashed new tank and rocket bombardments on opposition neighbourhoods in the city of Homs yesterday. British diplomats again sought United Nations backing for an Arab plan to end eleven months of bloodshed in the country at the UN. Well joining me from Dunmow is former British Ambassador to the United Nations, Sir Jeremy Greenstock. A very good morning to you Sir Jeremy.

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: Good morning.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Is there any more mileage left in the United Nations routes given that we saw Russia and China veto a resolution ten days ago?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: Yes, I think that veto made the Russians and the Chinese – but we are really talking about the Russians here – very uncomfortable because the Arab League was supporting that resolution, it was introduced by Morocco, the Arab nation on the Security Council. The Arab League wanted the shelling and the fighting to stop, they were putting pressure on the Damascus regime and the Russians stopped that in its tracks and that has been very unpopular in the Arab world. I think the Russians are quite uncomfortable and the moral force, the force of legitimacy in the UN, in the Security Council, is beginning to bear on the Russians as well as on the Syrian regime.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: But even with that resolution a lot of people say what difference would it make, the Assad regime is hell bent now on unleashing the full ferocity of its armed forces on the opposition?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: Well that seems to be the result on the ground, that President Bashar Al-Assad has decided he has got a freer rein and I think the Russians have to take some responsibility for that and everybody else is appalled by it. So we need something other than a straight Russian block of the international community’s action.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Okay, well while that goes on at the United Nations, unilaterally there are things that can be done. What about Britain expelling the Syrian ambassador, sending a signal that way?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: Well I don't think … I mean that’s the right response in terms of our disgust but it doesn’t help the people in Homs and Hama and other places that are being attacked by the regime. We need something other than words now I’m afraid and people are thinking about that, they are worrying about the prospect of intervention because Syria is such a complex country. They are worrying that there isn’t a clear and united opposition as there was to some extent in Libya and they’re worried that the effect of the Security Council’s resolution which was clearer over Libya is not going to be achievable. So Syria is a much more difficult case than Libya was.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: But could something such as seems to be taking shape, some co-operation between the Arab League and the United Nations around getting observers back in there, could that be something?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: Yes, I think that exerts some constraints on the regime. It didn’t work very well the last time the Arab League mission was there, the shelling and the attacks on civilians continued. I think that Turkey has a strong role to play in this particular situation although Turkey will be very cautious not to step over certain lines. On the Turkish border there are Syrian civilians gathering, trying to get away from the regime. Change in Syria is going to depend on defections, defections from the army, we need a place for defectors from the army to go. So far they have been individuals, there haven’t been any units of the army defecting but as we saw in Libya, the real way to change the situation on the ground is to draw people away from supporting the regime. That’s got to be the focus now.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: But in terms of that drawing away and the protection they are given, I know you rule out any form of intervention but there is discussion of safe havens, of areas set up on borders such as Turkey, where people can go and know that they can’t be attacked.

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: Yes, it doesn’t help the people still trapped in Homs and Hama, Damascus, Aleppo, wherever this fight is going to be taken, so we are a long way away from any resolution of this. Force will continue now to be used by President Bashar who has lost the opportunity I’m afraid of talking to his opposition, he should have done that long ago and he might have remained more uncontroversially in power. So it is going to be unpredictable, I think it is going to be long, drawn out and I think it’s going to be bloody. I think there is very little chance of us stopping the continuing bloodshed.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: So you see what is virtually a civil war, if it isn’t already, but ultimately with the removal of Bashar Al-Assad?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: I think he will only be removed by force now but I come back to my earlier point that there is no clear single opposition, there isn’t a single army forming of all the parts of population who are against Bashar Al-Assad. We aren’t even clear that there is a majority against the current regime so the political as well as the military situation is very confused.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: And just to go back to your original point, do you feel then, just to be clear about this, that there could be another United Nations resolution in some way because the Russians may feel slightly shamed by their previous actions?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: I think we need to go on putting pressure on Russia and China in the Security Council, as we’re putting pressure on Bashar Al-Assad in Damascus. The UN has a right to speak about this issue, it’s a matter of international peace and security, it’s not just an internal Syrian issue now, because of the Arab spring around it, because of the Israel-Palestine situation, because of Lebanon, what happens in Syria is international and the Security Council has a right to speak and the Russians can’t stop them from doing that.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: You talk about how long it all takes, the message then we send back to those in Homs trying to get their message out, please, please, please help us is sorry, we can’t, you’ll have to wait?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: That looks like being the situation because we’re not going to intervene, I think that’s very clear from the West’s point of view.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Okay, Sir Jeremy, thank you very much indeed. Sir Jeremy Greenstock there, former British Ambassador to the United Nations.