ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now are the Conservatives doomed to tear themselves apart over Europe again? There is already disagreement over how to deal with UKIP and this week up to 100 Conservative MPs could vote against the their own Queen’s Speech. The former Defence Secretary, Liam Fox, confirmed to me this morning he will be one of them and in a moment I’ll speak to the Home Secretary, Theresa May, about that and of course the on-going saga about Abu Qatada. A very good morning then to the Home Secretary who joins us from Sonning in Berkshire. First of all Ms May, on the issue of Europe, if there were a referendum today in/out on the European Union, would you join Michael Gove in voting no?

THERESA MAY: Well what I want to see is a renegotiated package that the Prime Minister has made clear we want to do. We want to negotiate a new deal with Europe and then have a referendum in or out on that particular new deal but what is absolutely clear from what has been said by Labour shadow ministers this morning is that Labour has no intention of giving the public a say, they have no intention of having such an in/out referendum so people will be clear for the next election that the only mainstream party that shares their views, that wants to have that in/out referendum on a renegotiated settlement will be the Conservative party.

DM: But given all the problems you’ve had in your job, and we’re getting on to Abu Qatada in a moment or two, if there were a vote now in/out wouldn’t you want to vote out?

TM: Well I’ve certainly had some problems, problems in relation to Abu Qatada of course with the European Court of Human Rights which is separate from the European Union. As I say on the European Union I think we do need to renegotiate the deal we’ve got with them and have that in/out referendum but in relation to the European Court of Human Rights, the European Convention, yes, there do seem to be numerous hoops and barriers in our way to be able to deport Abu Qatada, it’s taken far too long but I’ve been absolutely clear all along, my strategy is that we should deport him and deport him within the rule of law.

DM: As I say, we’ll get on to him in a moment but let’s talk about votes that will take place, in/out ones are hypothetical at the moment and of course a lot of your party, a lot of your MPs want to make sure there will be one, so this potential vote on Wednesday, how are you minded to vote then? Abstain as you’ve been instructed?

TM: Well I’ve got every sympathy with people who say they want to ensure that we can give the reassurance of the in/out referendum taking place but obviously I don’t think it is right for Ministers to effectively vote against the policy, the programme that we’ve put forward in the Queen’s Speech and I think in collective responsibility it is right that I should abstain, as with other Ministers.

DM: Okay but why not vote against it?

TM: Well as I say, we have collective responsibility and I think it’s right that Ministers should abstain from this vote. It is coming in a number of votes on the Queen’s Speech, this is an amendment on a particular issue as you say. I’ve got sympathy with those who want a level of reassurance on what’s going to happen after the next election on an in/out referendum but what people will see at the next election is there is only one mainstream party that recognises, as the public do, that we need to change our relationship with Europe and with the European Court on Human Rights. There is only one mainstream party that is going to go into that election promising that in/out referendum and that’s the Conservative party and people know that the way to have that in/out referendum after the next election is to vote Conservative.

DM: How do you think the Prime Minister has handled this? The papers are saying today there is turmoil there, his authority is being question, he could see over 100 of his MPs voting against him – it doesn’t look good for Mr Cameron does it?

TM: No, I don’t agree with that and I think what David Cameron has done is something very important for the Conservative party. The speech he gave on Europe some weeks ago was absolutely clear about the policy that we would have going into the next election, he has made absolutely no bones about the fact that we want to renegotiate our relationship with the European Union, he is the Prime Minister who has exercised a veto in the European Union, he stood up for British interests and he is absolutely clear and we are all clear that a Conservative party elected after the next general election will have that in/out referendum based on a new deal with Europe.

DM: Okay, let’s get on to Abu Qatada, we’ve touched on it so many times, let’s hear it from your own lips. After all the false dawns and what we heard last week from Abu Quatada’s, one of his solicitors, about his willingness to leave voluntarily, to go to Jordan, are you confident enough now after all those false dawns to predict a date by which Abu Qatada will have left the United Kingdom? Could he have gone by the end of this year?

TM: What I’m clear about is that we are closer now to deporting Abu Qatada but I am also clear that there are some steps to be taken still. What I want to do is to make sure that we deport him and deport him within the rule of law, that has always been my strategy so I am just going to keep working at this until we have deported Abu Qatada.

DM: This is all about the Jordanian parliament ratifying that treaty, are you sure that will happen and have you got it in your plans perhaps to go out there and nudge them along in that direction?

TM: Well we have to ratify the Treaty in both parliaments of course, it is being tabled before the Westminster parliament and has to be ratified in a period of time by both Houses in the UK parliament and indeed has to be ratified by the Jordanian parliament as well and I think they have made it absolutely clear that they will be putting this particular treaty or agreement as it is at the moment, through their parliament. As I say, on this issue …

DM: It is not really in question in this country is it, I just wondered on the timetable in Jordan, how quickly could it happen?

TM: Well I think we will be talking to them about the precise timetable that will be able to take place there but I am clear that we are closer now to Abu Qatada leaving this country. My strategy has always been to deport him within the rule of law, we have been working hard on that, not just myself but my Security Minister, James Brokenshire, as well and officials obviously and we will carry on working until we see Abu Qatada leave the United Kingdom.

DM: But just to be crystal clear about that, because we are led to believe from one of his legal team that if the Jordanians ratify that treaty as we have been discussing in the parliament, he might not need to be deported, he would leave voluntarily.

TM: Well that is what we have heard from his legal team but what I think it is right and proper for me to do and sensible for me to do is to carry on working obviously for that ratification but then when ratified by both parliaments it will be open to me to issue a new deportation notice. I have had a strategy of deporting Abu Qatada within the law, that remains my strategy but I am clear that what we want is for Abu Qatada to leave the United Kingdom.

DM: But you take that voluntary pledge with a pinch of salt then?

TM: No, it’s a pledge that has obviously, a statement that has been made by his lawyers but I think it is sensible that I continue to work along the track that I always have been as well.

DM: A bit of belt and braces. Let me move on to the police and I’m sure one of your events of the calendar is coming up, your address to the Police Federation. We all remember last year, the banners up there, some of the booing and heckling and you told the police there to stop pretending you’ve been picked on. Are you going to be as robust with them again this year?

TM: Certainly it is always an interesting experience and what I look forward to talking to the police about at their conference this year is about ways in which the government is trying to release them from red tape and bureaucracy to make sure that they are able to do the job that officers want to do, which is to be out there cutting crime.

DM: But isn’t it in the back of your mind, I’m talking about the reception here, when you get there, the shouts and the boos and the cat calls, isn’t it in the back of your mind, you really want to say but you suppress it, hey, show me some respect, I’m the Home Secretary?

TM: No, what I want to do is to go there and to talk to the Police Federation conference attendees, to the members that are there, I wasn’t to talk to them about what the government is doing in support of the police, about the ways in which we are ensuring that they are freed up, more freed up to do the job that they and the public want to do which is out on the streets, which is dealing with crime and cutting crime and that’s what I want to be talking to them about.

DM: I want to ask you about a dimension of crime and of course it cuts into the immigration debate as well, it has been much mentioned and we can look at a lot of the reasons behind the rise of UKIP over this issue of Romanians and Bulgarians being free to come here from 2014. We know that Nigel Farage has said that Romanians in particular are responsible for a bit of a crime wave, particularly in the capital. Do you agree with that, do you accept that, what are the Home Office figures?

TM: What I think is in relation to Romania and Bulgaria, the transition controls obviously do come off at the end of the year, they have been on for as long as possible, they come off for other countries as well like Germany and we will be taking steps to look at what call the pull factors that encourage people to, that attract people here to the UK and making some changes, for example in issues like access to benefits. We have a very important principle which is that we think that people shouldn’t take out of the system unless they’ve put into the system and we will make sure that the benefits regime follows that principle.

DM: But Nigel Farage, just respond to this, says that in London and major British cities, they are facing a Romanian crime epidemic, a factor that nobody dares to talk about. Is he right?

TM: Well one of the issues that we’ve been looking at as a government is the whole question generally of foreign national offenders, people who come here and commit crimes and making sure that we can deal with those effectively. One of the things that I will be doing in the Immigration Bill later this year is making sure that we put into an Act of Parliament how we think foreign national offenders should be dealt with in terms of being able to deport them and them not being able to claim this Article 8 right to a family life in order to stay here and I’m sure members of the public will think that that’s absolutely right, that we should be able to deport people who have committed significant crimes here.

DM: Indeed but specifically Romanians, 27,725 Romanians arrested over the past five years according to Scotland Yard, ten murders, 140 rapes out of a population out of about 90,000 in the UK.

TM: Well you can look at figures for a number of countries that people have come from here to the UK, what is important is two-fold, one that we actually deal with those crimes and the Metropolitan police have been doing very good work in relation to foreign offenders but also that we have a system which enables us to deport foreign national offenders, when they have committed serious crimes they should expect to be removed from this country and we will be changing the law to make sure that that can take place.

DM: But the only way as we know in terms of change in the law to keep Romanians and Bulgarians out as members of the European Union is to leave the European Union which more or less brings us full circle again to the referendum. Are you sure you wouldn’t like to share with us how you are minded at the moment to vote if there were a referendum? As I say, your colleague Michael Gove has been very frank about it.

TM: Well look, just the first point of the question that you asked me, as I’ve made clear, there are things we can do about foreign national offenders which is not about the European Union, it is actually about action that we can take because what is often stopping us with dealing with foreign national offenders is the European Court of Human Rights, the European Convention on Human Rights, this right to a private and a family life and people will have seen, your viewers will have seen cases reported, they will have been reported on Sky and in the press more generally where people have claimed that right which has enabled them to stay here in the UK when actually most people would have liked them to have been deported and been removed from the UK. In the Immigration Bill we are going to make it absolutely clear that we believe that those foreign national offenders when they have committed those serious crimes, should be deported from this country, that is something we can do. It’s not about whether you are in or out of the European Union, it’s something that we can do here in the UK and this government will be doing it.

DM: Indeed you are right, it’s not about being in or out of the European Union. Well when the vote comes in 2017, I know you are going to tell me it’s dependent on the renegotiations but I’ll put another hypothetical question to you, if nothing substantial – as so many people say – has been renegotiated, no substantial powers repatriated, how would you vote?

TM: Well what I’m going to be working for, Dermot, alongside the Prime Minister and others, is to make sure that when that package is put to the British people that we have a package which is a different deal, which does have a different relationship with the European Union. That’s what people want and that’s what we are going to be working for.

DM: Well as we’ve all heard, I’ve given you plenty of opportunities to say how you’d be minded – do you think Michael Gove was wrong to be so frank this morning?

TM: No, Michael gave his view, I’ve been clear in my comments here that I think there is a change that is needed and there are some barriers that we find in the issues that I deal with within the European Union but what I want to see is work done to make sure that we get a renegotiated deal, a renegotiated settlement and then have that put to the British people and I think that’s right, it’s what the Conservatives are committed to and as I say, again, there is only one mainstream party in this country that is committed to doing that, to having that in/out referendum. It’s clear from comments from Labour shadow ministers that the Labour party would not have that in/out referendum so people will know at the next general election that if they want that referendum there is only one party that will give it to them in government and that’s the Conservatives.

DM: Okay, Home Secretary, thank you very much indeed. Theresa May there.