ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, 17 NHS hospitals have dangerously low staffing levels, that’s according to the official watchdog, the Care Quality Commission. Let’s get the views now of the Labour Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham, a very good morning to you Mr Burnham. As I say, there are 17 NHS hospital trusts there with dangerously low staffing levels, can you lay this at the door of the government or isn’t it just all about the Trusts with their independently managed budgets getting it wrong?

ANDY BURNHAM: Well I think it’s both to be honest, Dermot. You’ll remember I was coming on your programme fairly regularly about a year ago warning David Cameron that this was the wrong time to reorganise the NHS, that he needed to focus on the finances and of course he didn’t listen and he ploughed on and I think we are beginning to see the effects of what that means on the ground in the NHS. It has diverted £3 billion away from the NHS frontline and put it into back office restructuring so in the last few months we’ve been seeing managers getting six figure payoffs and nurses getting P45s in their thousands. Now those are the wrong priorities for the NHS right now.

DM: But I mean, given that it’s a one-off reorganisation as you describe, well then even you would accept that it should flatten out because I’m sure you’ll accept that the government has said it has not cut, it has ring fenced the NHS budget.

AB: Well to be honest, that’s not true, Dermot. We heard last year from the head of the UK Statistics Authority that in real terms the NHS budget was lower in 2011/12 than it was when Labour left office and my argument is that it is that toxic medicine of cuts and reorganisation that has caused a lot of destabilisation in the NHS and I’m hearing reports across the country that A&E in particular is under severe pressure at the moment. The government has missed its national A&E target for many weeks running and we had reports here in Greater Manchester last week that patients were being treated in ambulances in car parks because they simply just couldn’t get into the building. Now the government has to get a grip on that, it’s its responsibility to ensure that all hospitals in England are providing safe care and that’s why I’m saying today, that’s why we put this list into the public domain, people have a right to know, they have the right to challenge if their hospital doesn’t have adequate staffing and ultimately the government must act to ensure that all hospitals have safe staffing levels.

DM: But of course it begs the question, doesn’t it, again there is a lot of pressure as you know upon your party to say where will the cuts come, where will the spending be protected, where will there be increases. Can you say within this NHS budget what it’s getting now is just about right but it’s the way the cake is being cut or Labour would put more in?

AB: Well I left plans to protect the NHS budget in real terms and that was in my judgement the right thing to do because we also needed to ensure that councils have enough money to pay for good social care because the NHS depends upon councils being able to put in place the support to discharge people from hospital. Now that hasn’t happened and I think the NHS is suffering as a result of the government’s approach but the big difference of course, Dermot, is that they have put £3 billion into back office restructuring and that is precisely the wrong priority for the NHS at this moment in time. Round the country we are hearing that there are queues of ambulances outside hospitals, we’ve heard that half a million people have waited for more than four hours in A&E already this year. The NHS is struggling at the moment and the government urgently needs to get a grip and it actually has to begin by saying it will ensure that all hospitals in England will have safe staffing levels throughout the coming winter period.

DM: Can I just ask you about a couple of other matters if we’ve got time. First of all the Unite leader, Len McCluskey, on this programme saying of course he gives a lot of money to Labour, a lot of his members are Labour voters and supporters and saying he really wants to the Labour leadership to step up to the plate in his campaign and other union leaders’ campaign to fight the government on its cuts programme and more or less saying well he didn’t really think that Labour has been sending out the right signals so far and he’s talking about things like direct action, more demonstrations, even a general strike.

AB: Well those matters are for Len McCluskey but I am quite clear that the Shadow Cabinet does have a job to do to speak up for people who are facing very tough times from this government. I’m speaking up for nurses today because I believe they are in hospitals across England today struggling, overstretched, overworked and I’ve got a responsibility to speak up for them and that’s what I’m doing today and generally I would accept the point that the Shadow Cabinet does need to perhaps go out more and speak up for ordinary people but at the same time we have to put on the table alternatives, alternative policies to what the government is doing so in a couple of weeks’ time I will set out Labour’s health and care policy and I’ll be talking about integration of health and social care. So the time has come for Labour to step forward and put more on the table and so I very much hear that challenge and I’m responding to it.

DM: Okay, a quick one on Europe, Mr Cameron’s much anticipated speech on Europe expected in what, nine or ten days’ time. Do you think he should be making it at all and – well he is going to – and do you think it will jeopardise Britain’s relationship with the EU?

AB: Well I think he’s playing it badly, to say the least. The speech seems to be more about managing the Conservative party, all of the jitters about UKIP in Tory constituencies, rather than the British national interest. We heard last week from senior representatives of the Obama government saying Britain should get a grip, focus on the things that matter. Britain benefits, as does the US, from Britain playing a strong role in Europe and he really needs to listen to those voices. Also we have business leaders writing to the newspapers saying the same thing. Let’s have the government focusing on growth, working with European partners to get the economy moving rather than having this grandstanding from within the Conservative party and playing to the back benches about Europe. In doing so I believe he is neglecting the national interest.

DM: Okay, Mr Burnham, good to talk to you, thank you very much indeed. Andy Burnham, Shadow Health Secretary there.

AB: And you, thank you