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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Baroness Butler-Sloss was appointed this week to lead the inquiry into allegations of child abuse in Westminster during the 1980s but the choice has been heavily criticised by those who say she is a bastion of the Establishment so is she the right person to be in charge?  In a moment I’ll speak to the Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper and then to the Home Office Minister, James Brokenshire.  Well let’s say a very good morning then to the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper who joins me now from her constituency in Castleford in West Yorkshire.  First of all, Yvette Cooper, given some of the misgivings about Baroness Butler-Sloss, do you still think, does Labour still think she is the right person to lead this main inquiry into child abuse?

YVETTE COOPER: Well the overarching inquiry is really important, it’s something that we called for 18 months ago and I think that Theresa May has set this up suddenly in rather a rush, it was something that she resisted doing.  We know of course that Baroness Butler-Sloss has immense experience and expertise obviously as Head of the Family Court so I think there is no doubt about her expertise but you are also right, this process has to have the confidence of victims, the confidence of the public and that’s why I think the Home Office needs to make sure that they can do that now including setting out really what the terms of this inquiry will be, who else is going to be on the panel and how this is going to work.

DM: Ah, is that a clue to your view?  I don’t quite understand whether you are for or against Baroness Butler-Sloss from that answer, do you think she should be joined on the panel?

YVETTE COOPER: I think she should, I think that they are going to need for example those people who have perhaps survived abuse and who will have a different perspective to add to this, I think they need to look at who else can be involved to make sure that they have got the right mix of people involved to command confidence and to make sure that all views are taken into account and that they have the really wide range of expertise that they need in order to do this.

DM: So she should still lead it or are you talking about co-chairing?

YVETTE COOPER: Well I think that’s going to be a matter for the Home Office to work out what will best actually command the confidence that we need in this because bear in mind, there are a series of things that have got to be got to the bottom of.  There’s the police investigation into any allegations of abuse against children, there’s got to be that criminal investigation.  We also need I think a much stronger inquiry into what happened in the Home Office or in other institutions across Whitehall because I think just having a review of a review isn’t really good enough when you have got to demonstrate that all of these investigations have been pursued and then thirdly, this overarching inquiry where we still don’t have any terms of reference from the government and I think they have got to get a grip on that and I also think it should look at current child protection issues where there are some serious concerns for example about the drop in prosecutions for child sex offences in the last few years and also about the barring system not working effectively too.

DM: Well you have answered a lot of the questions I was going to ask you about the remit and the scope right there but what about chairing it?  You are not being crystal clear here, there are concerns that Baroness Butler-Sloss is too Establishment to be investigating the Establishment, family relations and things like that and that she buried allegations about a Bishop in 2011 and is quoted as having said she cared about the Church, the press would love to get a Bishop.  Is she the right person to be the lead chair on this inquiry?

YVETTE COOPER: Well I think there is a series of things that need to be clear. For example they need to have a clear process about any area where there might be any conflict of interest or even a perception about conflict of interest, how will that be dealt with?  They need to make sure they have the right mix of people but they need to also make sure that it has the confidence of the victims.  Now as I’ve said, look from the start – and I think a lot of people have said from the start …

DM: But some of the victims say that … Let’s just pick up on that, just to clarify, I’m trying to clarify, Yvette Cooper, if you are for or against her, Baroness Butler-Sloss, leading this committee – is that a yes or a no?  Some of the victims, some of the survivors are saying that they don’t have confidence in her so should she be replaced?

YVETTE COOPER: And that’s what the Home Office need to address in the next few weeks and they need to be able to do so quickly otherwise they are going to need to rethink the way that this whole thing works.  We said from the start that Baroness Butler-Sloss has all of the experience necessary to come up with the right expert recommendations but she also needs to have the confidence of the public and the confidence of victims.  Now I hope the Home Office will be able to do that in the way in which they set up the inquiry.  If they can’t then they’ll need to rethink the whole thing but I hope they’ll be able to do that and I hope they will do that very quickly by the way in which they set up the panel and the way in which they set up the terms of reference for this inquiry and I hope that they can do that.

DM: But you talk about this as if you’re not involved in it.  You are a party that has been in government, that wants to be in government again, does Baroness Butler-Sloss have the confidence of the Shadow Home Secretary?

YVETTE COOPER: I think she is an extremely experienced person who will be very good to do this job but she also needs the right people around her and she needs the Home Office to take action to make sure they can address all of these concerns.  If they can’t they will need to make changes and rethink the whole thing but I think the ball should be in the Home Office’s court now to set this up in the right way and to make sure they can do that because I do think she has immense expertise that should be drawn upon.  And I know you wanted, Dermot, just to talk about the Chair, this is not just about that, this is also about the terms of reference.  We know for example that there has been a 75% drop in the number of convicted criminals being barred from working with children in the last few years.  There are a lot of very serious child protection issues that are current, not just historic, that need to be looked at.  My view is that this needs to look at the current child protection system and the problems for the future, not simply about the historic problems.

DM: Okay, I also wanted to ask you about – we spent a bit more time on that than I expected as we tried to get to your view on Baroness Butler-Sloss – I wanted to ask you about this Data Retention Bill and Labour’s support for it.  Are you quite comfortable with the government being allowed to hold, well to obtain and hold, or the security services on their behalf, to keep all this data on people?  It doesn’t seems to have enough checks and balances.

YVETTE COOPER: Well I said from the start I think because of new technology stronger checks and balances are needed and we need new safeguards.  What this legislation is about, temporary legislation, I think the government should have brought it in earlier, there are concerns about the fact that it is just coming through just in the final week of parliament but what this is about, it’s about the companies, the phone companies and the internet companies holding billing information for 12 months so that the police can get it under warrant when for example they are investigating who might have sent some abusive horrible images of children or who might be returning from Syria and what their intentions might be and they should be able to get that information under warrant and we shouldn’t just lose that very suddenly in the next couple of months.  That’s why we said temporary legislation is needed however there is a much bigger issue about whether the legal framework is now out of date, whether stronger oversight is needed as I have [inaudible] and that’s why we have called for this big review of the whole legal framework.  I think it’s unfortunate that the government didn’t start that earlier and I hope they will do so now.

DM: Okay and I just wanted to ask you finally, Yvette Cooper, about the issue of more female representation in parliament and of course in government, that’s as we talk this week about a reshuffle when we are expecting Mr Cameron to promote more of his female Conservative MPs, do you think that will be enough?

YVETTE COOPER: Well I think if he was serious about having women in his Cabinet, he’s had four years to do so, there’s only three women in the Cabinet of between 20 and 30 people at the moment and I think this is going to look really like a sort of last minute worry about votes because he knows that he’s got a blind spot when it comes to women.  You’ve got women being hit three times as hard as men by government policies and they have just consistently failed to have enough voices from women heard within the government, I think this is a bit too little, too late. 

DM: It’s interesting what you say about Mr Cameron having a blind spot about women, that would make him a kind of, what, unconscious sexist?

YVETTE COOPER: I think he just doesn’t get it.  I think for example the impact of the cuts to child tax credit, he had no impact of the impact that that would have on women’s lives.  The fact that the pay gap between men and women seems to have widened again in the last few years, the fact that they had done nothing on violence against women when prosecutions for domestic violence have fallen and the fact that overall, when you look at all of the measures that the government has taken, consistently women are being hit harder than men.  I think you have to ask real serious questions about why David Cameron is blind to that, why he just doesn’t see those problems.

DM: Okay, well good to talk to you, Shadow Home Secretary, thank you very much indeed.  Yvette Cooper there.