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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Here in Edinburgh I am joined by the former Defence Secretary and former Secretary of State for Scotland, John Reid, joins me now, a very good morning to you Lord Reid.  You thoughts first of all must be with the Haines family. 

JOHN REID: Absolutely, I think all of us send our condolences and our thoughts are with them.  This is a barbaric crime, an evil, horrific crime but it’s not mindless violence because it is being done for two reasons.  One is to terrify us, that’s what terrorists do and the second one is to divide us, so our hope our response will not only be a resolution but also unity because that’s the way to defy the terrorists.  Now we have always had that at the UK level across parties when we are dealing with hostages, the bilateral approach, Labour will support what the government is doing but I think we have an opportunity in Scotland during a period of differences, division and argumentation to show the people who commit such terrible crimes that we won’t be divided by that and that this will not be an issue over the next few days.  I think the Scottish people would not look kindly on any politicians who were attempting to use these tragic circumstances for point scoring.  I’m sure it will be, I’m sure it will be agreed right across the parties in Scotland, whatever our differences. 

DM: That’s on the human level, what about the military level?  How much of a response … we hear about the humanitarian aid, we know that President Obama is painstakingly putting this coalition together, how involved should the United Kingdom get in that? 

JOHN REID:  We know that COBRA is already meeting and I know from my experience in government over many years and in many positions, that the worst thing is for outsiders who are not in full command of information that the members of COBRA will have, to have a running commentary on this.  I think it’s better to let them make this decision and as far as possible to give bilateral support as well as support right across all of the parties to it.  It is a very difficult situation and in general there is a view that we don’t treat with terrorists when it comes to hostages but each individual case, and this is terribly difficult for the families and indeed for the politicians involved, so I don't think I want to give a running commentary on that other than to say it’s an horrific deed, it is intended to divide us and to frighten us so responding with a degree of resolution and complete unity is the best response to people like this. 

DM: Okay, well I know you are going to give me a running commentary on this campaign, only four days to go and the charge is that it is Labour voters, if independence is to be delivered, which will deliver it for Mr Salmond, the Labour party machine is fracturing in Scotland?

JOHN REID: Well give some credit to the people of Scotland, Dermot, they don’t take diktats from parties on a question as big as this.  It is true that there will be Labour voters who will be thinking of voting for separation …

DM: 30% of them. 

JOHN REID: It is also true that there is 20% of the nationalists apparently who want to vote against the central objective of nationalism which is separation. 

DM: But there are far more Labour voters than there are SNP voters so 30% of the million of so who vote for you, that’s a lot of voters. 

JOHN REID: Rather than listen to polls, let’s listen to the arguments.  There is one big decision to make and that is whether you prefer to be a country which has a national consciousness, a rich diversity, a history and a culture of which we are all proud and control over our own affairs and be part of a bigger state that gives you financial stability, economic growth, individual opportunity and so on or whether you say no, we want to go our separate way with all the dangers and risks that will bring, to pensions, to currency, to jobs, to investment and so on and I think that’s what will concentrate the minds in the next few days. 

DM: But what about the offer from the Better Together campaign, why didn’t you make it weeks or months ago, why a panicked response in the last week from Gordon Brown?

JOHN REID:  You can go off and tell your researchers if they have been telling you that they have got it wrong.  This offer …  

DM: I interviewed Gordon Brown last week and that’s when it came out. 

JOHN REID:  No, I’m afraid it’s not.   All three parties earlier in the summer … look there was a process of devolution …

DM: We didn’t hear about home rule though. 

JOHN REID:  If you can let me finish … yes, you did. 

DM: The words ‘a modern form of home rule’ were used by Gordon Brown, they were not used before. 

JOHN REID: Yes, they were.  I have been using the term home rule, Kier Hardie used it back in the …

DM: Gladstone used it about Ireland and look where that went.

JOHN REID:  Because he refused to give it.  However these proposals were made in the summer to build on what already was strengthening our control here in Scotland, the Calman Commission, which built on what already had been brought in devolution.  What was announced by Gordon Brown was a timetable so the offer was always there and the Scottish people now know that they can have safer, stronger, quicker accountability for …

DM: And the timetable of this announcement was always planned was it?  It was always going to be that Monday just under a week ago?    

JOHN REID: I don't know if it was going to be ten o’clock on one day or eleven o’clock on another day but the substance of those were already out there.  So to get away from process to the choice, the choice is now even greater for the people of Scotland.  You can not only have control over your own affairs but you can have greater control on a known timetable and the stability of the United Kingdom without all of the risks.  Now it is perfectly legitimate to say should you be mentioning the risks, isn’t that negative?  That’s risk assessment.  Every child at school is told before you cross the road, look both ways.  We all know look before you leap, every businessman and woman carries out a risk assessment. 

DM: This is prudent advice to children.   

JOHN REID:  And adults, everybody knows this except some leaders because Alex doesn’t want us to ask the questions.  Why didn’t he want people to know about the Royal Bank of Scotland?  He is going on about oh, who leaked the information, the point is that the people of Scotland are entitled to know if all of the banks are going to leave Scotland, Marks & Spencer, B&Q and the others, John Lewis, are telling of prices going up.  The people of Scotland are entitled to know that.  The threat to the pensions, they are entitled to know that.  That isn’t negative, that is protecting the people of Scotland so we say you can have safer, better, quicker, stronger devolution but within the United Kingdom and there’s the timetable for implementing it. 

DM: Lord Reid, thank you very much indeed, very good to see you.