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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Six NATO troops killed by Afghan forces, a total of 51 so far this year, so where does this put our timetable for withdrawal? Well in a moment I’ll speak to Labour’s Shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas Alexander. Good morning to you Mr Alexander, the worrying developments, two separate attacks in Afghanistan from it seems within the security forces that we’re trying to build up. Does this say that the strategy is going wrong in your book?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well the first thing that needs to be said is to extend sympathy to the comrades and family of those who have fallen. It seems that this is a clear Taliban strategy both to undermine confidence amongst international forces in Afghanistan and to undermine confidence within the United Kingdom and other international countries where forces are being provided. It seems to me the real challenge is how do we get out of Afghanistan in a way that what is left behind is safe not just for the Afghans but critically, for the international community. It is now more than ten years since international forces went in to Afghanistan, we should never forget the prior purpose. The purpose was to protect the civilians of the United Kingdom, of Europe, of the United States, that has to be the test as we look to withdraw our forces over the coming months.

DM: Is that in question, the achievements of that long, long campaign where we take into account just the events of recent days, that attack, substantial attack at the heart of NATO, Camp Bastian? Doesn’t it show that when those forces leave, the Taliban and others who oppose them are in a pretty strong position?

DA: Nobody seriously thinks that Afghanistan is going to be Switzerland the day after the international forces have left, if you travel to Afghanistan as I have many times …

DM: But are there fears that it might revert to 2001?

DA: Well that is not a scenario that either most military planners or analysts looking at Afghanistan think is most likely. If you have been to Camp Bastian, as I have many times, you appreciate this is a huge, huge airbase, in a huge area of fairly exposed land which was traditionally in a part of the country controlled by the Taliban so I wouldn’t attribute too much significance to one instance but I don't think that we have to look at the whole strategy. Is it right that British forces are coming out of Afghanistan? Yes, it is. Is it right that we try and have a continuing development effort in Afghanistan? Yes, I believe that is also right. What I think is wrong is the failure frankly of the international community, including the British government, to match the military heroism with a clear political strategy so that there is a settlement in Afghanistan when British troops leave. The Prime Minister came to office in May 2010 saying Afghanistan would be his number one foreign policy priority, I think he was entirely correct in that judgement. We have got eight and a thousand …

DM: Would you like him to actually engage with elements of the Taliban?

DA: First of all I would like him to make a speech in the House of Commons. It’s now fourteen months since the Prime Minister made a speech in the House of Commons about Afghanistan, I just think that’s wrong when we have got eight and a half thousand British troops still in harm’s way as we have seen, tragically, this weekend. We must avoid a war of neglect as I fear that we will move towards unless there is engagement …

DM: What do you want him to talk about, engagement with elements of the Taliban, is that what you want to see?

DA: Yes and that’s going to be difficult but frankly in the United Kingdom we have the experience of the Northern Ireland peace process, these are inherently difficult processes involving talking to people who are still shooting at you. That was the case in Northern Ireland and I think it would be the case in Afghanistan as well. It needs to be a UN led process with the Afghans in the lead but it should be supported by the United Kingdom, the United States, the rest of NATO and frankly there hasn’t been the level of diplomatic engagement over recent years to match the military heroism and I think the real way that we can pay tribute to British troops that have served and many that have been lost in Afghanistan is to make sure that in the critical months ahead we match that military heroism with a diplomatic strategy. We need something on the scale of Camp David whereby you can both bring in those regional powers who have an interest in Afghanistan not descending into civil war but also, critically, those elements within Afghanistan who have a shared interest in bringing Afghanistan together but keeping Al Qaeda out. The tribes in and Al Qaeda out is the basis on which I think this can be brought to a conclusion and when you talk to British military commanders, they understand this. They say and they tell me when I visit Afghanistan, you can’t kill or capture your way out of an insurgency on this scale. Ultimately it has to end in talking and I don't think there has been enough talking, while at the same time I support and respect the military pressure that has been maintained on the Taliban.

DM: This is one country we’re talking about and just to move things on, is this another dimension of it, do you think talking, do you think there is a lack of strategy when it comes to what we have seen from those attacks on embassies and consulates around the Middle East, around those countries affected by the Arab awakening, that the core strategy of Barack Obama when he was elected to engage with the Muslim world, to say we in America are no threat to you, has failed?

DA: Well listen, it has been a very troubling week right across North Africa and indeed in the Middle East. First of all I wouldn’t attribute it to the Arab Spring, we’ve seen protests in more than fifteen countries, your clip just showed protests in Belgium so we can’t say these are only in countries where there has been a revolution against a dictator. On the other hand, attacks on embassies are an attack on a very specific idea, which is that we can discuss and work our way through shared problems and in that sense there is a heavy responsibility on the governments in these countries to protect diplomats so that diplomats can do their jobs. In terms of the broader lessons, well my mind went back when I saw these scenes to 2006, when the Danish cartoons precipitated I’m afraid a huge number deaths and protests across the Middle East and I think you have to understand what’s happened this week in that broader context of distrust and fear. This film that was produced was not just stupid, it was disgusting, but that is no defence and no justification whatsoever for the kind of violence we have seen perpetrated I believe by a small number of very militant activists in a number of countries, of course including Libya.

DM: And lastly, Mr Alexander, can I just turn to matters domestic, matters internal when it comes to – well not internal because we’re all looking at you – when it comes to the Labour party. It has been said at the moment and we can see it ourselves, we can see it in the polls that there is a large dissatisfaction with the coalition, the Conservative led coalition as you call it and indeed Mr Cameron’s leadership and some commentators say well this is a real opportunity for your leader to get his message across, to let us in to some of the real hard nitty-gritty of the policies you are going to put before us at the next election but he’s not doing that and when people look for an alternative to Mr Cameron at the moment they talk about Boris Johnson.

DA: Well I think that says more about the atmosphere within the Conservative party but in terms of what Labour’s position is, listen, we’ve had a couple of years where we’ve been trying to talk about both some of the things that we got wrong and some of the things that we think the government is getting wrong but all of us have to recognise that we took a beating in the 2010 election and it was always going to take time for people to be willing to look again at Labour. I sincerely believe that is now happening and the reason that’s happening is that people in large measure were willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt but they’ve seen over the last six to eight months that Plan A is just not working. We’re seeing the deficit going up, we’re seeing unemployment far too high, we’re seeing three quarters of negative growth. That’s why I think this conference in a couple of weeks’ time for Labour affords a genuine opportunity.

DM: A crucial opportunity because, and I’m thinking of more specifics here because people, in terms of the popularity of Boris Johnson, and it’s not just within the Conservative party, we’ve seen the polling how popular he is amongst the general electorate because Boris Johnson says things they can understand. When we talk about a general strike, when we hear about militant unions, we hear from Boris Johnson, well I want to take them on, I want this kind of thing to stop. We don’t hear what Labour would do, we get a lot of fudge on those kinds of issues from Mr Miliband. What would you do if there were to be a general strike? What would Labour say about that?

DA: Well I don’t want to see a general strike but I also don’t want to see Conservative politicians trying to play politics with an issue quite this serious. I think one of the concerns that people have when they look at politicians like Boris Johnson is, is his approach to judge the angles and to see where he can cause trouble frankly for David Cameron as much as for Ed Miliband …

DM: And of course the Opposition wouldn’t do that.

DA: Well frankly our job is to set out a genuine alternative, that’s what we’re going to do at the conference in Manchester just the week after next.

DM: And what about a third runway? Again, Boris Johnson is very clear on that.

DA: Well he’s very clear he wants Boris island, which speaks volumes about …

DM: But what would Labour do about welfare reform, would they roll that back? NHS changes, free schools …?

DA: Of course we want to see sensible changes on welfare but what we saw in the 80s is now being repeated which is you can talk tough on welfare but if you lose control of employment the benefit bill goes up, not down and that’s just one example of where we’re making I think the very straightforward and common-sensical point that the plans the Conservatives came to power with in 2010 have been tried but they’ve failed. That’s why we have seen a double dip recession here in the United Kingdom, the only other European country Italy suffering a double dip recession. It’s why on benefits we are actually seeing the benefit bill goes up rather than down at the moment. Of course we’ve got a strong criticism of the government, that’s what we’ve offered over recent months and I think the opportunity afforded for us in Manchester is to begin to set out some of those alternatives as well as the critique that we’ve been offering of the government. My sense is people are now willing to listen to us and we should take that opportunity.

DM: Watch this space. Mr Alexander, thank you very much indeed for your time. Douglas Alexander there.