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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, a third of NHS hospitals hit full capacity last month, that’s according to official figures. The government says winter is of course the busiest time for hospitals so should we be worried? Well I’m joined now from Leigh in Lancashire by the Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham. A very good morning to you Mr Burnham, of course we should be worried when hospitals hit full capacity but as the NHS says and the government says, well it is winter, do you think they can cope?

ANDY BURNHAM: That’s true, it is winter, this is the busiest time of the year but hospitals across England are operating well above 85% capacity, some as we hear are at 100% capacity and that’s well above recommended levels. I spent some time myself shadowing a lead nurse last week in an NHS hospital and I saw for myself the intense pressure that they’re under and many hospitals are having to sail dangerously close to the wind in dealing with this pressure. The primary cause seems to be cuts to social care budgets, hospitals are struggling to discharge patients and that is leading to pressure backing up out through A&E but also there appear to be staff shortages on the ground. So it’s right for me to bring these concerns to the government to say the NHS is under intense strain right now and they need to ensure that all over the country it can provide safe care throughout the winter.

DM: And of course part of it feeds through from local authority cuts and caring for certain sections of the community, you end up with the NHS as well. I mean in the interests of fleshing out the policy offering which you no doubt have seen, we’ve just been discussing on this programme, is Labour saying here that they put more resources either into the local authorities or into the NHS?

AB: Well that’s a really good question, Dermot. I think the problem that we’re seeing in the NHS right now is this mis-match between NHS funding and local authority funding. Councils are having to make some severe cuts and that is limiting their ability to take patients back out into the community so in some ways the cuts to the councils are a false economy because the NHS stops working. The policy that I put on the table, I said I believe it is time for the full integration of health and social care, I don't think we can carry on operating this as two systems where the NHS is doing things on the one hand and they are not working as closely as they should be with councils. I’m saying it’s time to think of this as one budget providing whole person care, looking after people’s social needs as well as their physical and mental needs.

DM: But the question is, is it an increased budget?

AB: No, I’m planning for, as everybody is, no new money. I think we can get much better value for the 120 or so billion pounds we currently put into health and social care if we operated it as one system because at the moment we are not investing in prevention. In fact we are cutting social care, which is the preventative side of this business, so people are ending up in hospital unnecessarily when they needn’t be there and in the hospital I was in last week, they were saying as many as a hundred patients were on the wards who really could be back at home but there simply isn’t the money in the community to pay for the care and support that they need. Now that doesn’t make sense because we’re tying up very expensive hospital beds with patients who don’t need to be there.

DM: There’s another issue from this week and indeed last week’s news on your beat isn’t there, this issue of contamination, of horsemeat particularly in beef products. Now given the amount of food that the NHS gets through in any given week, there’s got to be a concern what’s in some of it.

AB: Absolutely and I think the more we learn about this story, the more worrying it becomes. The government hasn’t said much so far about the quality and safety of hospital food. Obviously the NHS is serving thousands of meals, millions of meals a week to people in hospitals and we need to have confidence, patients need confidence that those meals are what they say they are but also that they’re safe so we’re writing to Jeremy Hunt today to ask what steps he has taken to assure the quality and safety of hospital food so far in response to the unfolding horsemeat scandal and what further steps he’s taking to ensure that all hospitals are providing good quality safe food.

DM: Are you asking him to urgently test everything that’s going in to hospitals? It’s of paramount importance to getting well isn’t it, getting quality food?

AB: Absolutely and we’ve not heard from the government about what steps it has taken in respect of hospital food so we need to know, what have they done so far to assure that the production chain that leads to meals being served in hospitals is of high quality and properly regulated and we’ve not heard from them on that topic so that’s why we’re writing to Jeremy Hunt today. As it unfolds, we are obviously finding out more and more and it gives real concern about whether the hospital food that we have been serving is what it says it is and is also safe, so that’s why we’re asking the government to make a clear statement on this today. Patients need to know that hospital food is of the required standard.

DM: Just let me ask you about the reconversion to the 10p tax rate, is this something that Labour is now sincerely taking on board given that you got rid of it under Gordon Brown or is it just a wheeze you thought up round the Shadow Cabinet Table and thought this’ll put the cat amongst the pigeons between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives?

AB: No, absolutely no. I think I certainly said it, I think Ed Miliband did as well, when we were in the leadership contest, that was one of the biggest mistakes that we regretted of our time in government. It sent the wrong signal, it looked like Labour wasn’t on the side of ordinary working people anymore and I certainly really felt that at the time. We did do things to try and put it right while were in government but the wrong signal was sent and it made us look like we were out of touch so I’m very pleased that Ed Miliband has made a clear commitment this week to return to a 10p tax rate if re-elected. I’m also pleased that he says he will fund that through a Mansions Tax because I think people at times have thought what does Labour stand for now if it doesn’t stand for a more equal society, a fairer society? This is a very clear move that says that Labour will bring the right values. When everybody is struggling we need to have a society where we help people who are working hard at the bottom of society, we need to give them the most help that we possibly can and that is why I think this is a very good move that gives people a clear idea of where One Nation Labour is heading.

DM: But is it also not a Labour policy to put the boot into your former leader, to put the boot into Gordon Brown? It was a bit much coming from Ed Miliband wasn’t it, given how closely the two of them worked together in government?

AB: Well I don’t do that, actually. I have huge respect for Gordon and indeed for Tony Blair, I was very loyal to both of them and I have got great pride in what they both achieved as Prime Minister. Of course we didn’t get everything right, that is why we’re now the opposition but we got many things right. We did many things to help ordinary working people in this country beginning with the minimum wage but many other steps, tax credits were Gordon’s achievement that gave so many people in my constituency the help they needed to make ends meet and I think that stands in contrast to the government we’ve now got, a very out of touch government which quite frankly has no idea how people in Leigh are living their lives, the pressure we’re under. We didn’t get everything right but I think you can see Labour getting back to its instincts and helping people through tough times.

DM: Okay Shadow Secretary, thank you very much indeed. The Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham there.