ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now, could Ed Miliband be Prime Minister?  It’s a very simple question but is of course one that millions of voters will ask themselves in just under a year’s time.  I met the Labour leader on the campaign trail in Crawley in the south-east yesterday and we began by discussing the European elections and I asked him how much UKIP is eating into the Labour vote.

ED MILIBAND: Well I think it’s a very unpredictable election, I think it is one of the most unpredictable elections that anyone can remember and I think that reflects a deep discontent that people have about the way the country is run, a sense that ordinary families are not getting a fair crack of the whip, a fair shake, a sense that it’s run for a few people at the top and also a question in many people’s minds which is can any politician turn this round?  Now I passionately believe we can, that’s why Labour has been campaigning on the policies that we think can make a difference to that central question of how we turn round our economy, make it really work for ordinary families which I don't think it has done for a long time but it is definitely a very uncertain election. 

DM: But isn’t UKIP addressing, in some people’s estimation UKIP is addressing some of those questions that people have and finishing second for Labour would not be the platform you need to win a general election would it?

ED MILIBAND: I’ll leave the commentary to others but on UKIP, they are definitely trying to tap in to people’s sense of discontent that I talked about.  I don't think they have the right solutions.  I think the question on the ballot paper next Thursday, the biggest question for me I believe is how do you run this country in a different way so that it doesn’t just favour the richest in our society.  UKIPs answers, Mr Farage saying that he wants to keep the flame of Thatcherism burning, he wants bigger cuts than the Tories, he wants to charge people to see their GP, I don't think those are a solution so I think they are definitely trying to tap into the discontent, I think we’ve got better solutions to the discontent there is and to the feelings people have about the way the country is run. 

DM: Is he a racist, Nigel Farage? 

ED MILIBAND: Personally I don't think so.  I think his remarks that he made yesterday which people will have maybe seen were deeply offensive. 

DM: About not wanting Romanians moving in next door?

ED MILIBAND: Yes, yes, those were insulting and offensive remarks and he shouldn’t have made them. 

DM: They were racist weren’t they?

ED MILIBAND: Well look, I think they were a racial slur but I don’t particularly think of Nigel Farage as a racist himself.  I think they were inappropriate and wrong and offensive and he shouldn’t have made those remarks.  I’ve been careful in this campaign not to characterise him personally as a racist, I don’t know him very well, I’ve only met him once but I don’t think of him that way but I certainly think they were wrong. 

DM: But there are some racists in UKIP aren’t there? 

ED MILLIBAND:  Well look, for example, earlier on in the campaign there was somebody who said something deeply offensive about Lenny Henry, that was clearly a racist, not just a racist rant but a deeply, deeply racist thing to say and that person was I think got rid of but I think UKIP do have to look very carefully at who they have as candidates and who’s in their team.

DM: Tell me about this new advisor you have imported from America, David Axelrod, a lot of excitement about him after his experience on President Obama’s two successful campaigns.  How concerned is he about Labour’s dwindling poll lead?

ED MILIBAND: That wasn’t really what we talked about, you know.  I mean the reason I got to know David Alexrod is from last September or so we have had a series of conversations and he came over this week.  He ran two campaigns for President Obama about what they thought was the biggest issue in America, which is very similar to the issue that we face here, which is the growing gap between the richest and everybody else and the way the country, the way so many people don’t feel they get a fair crack of the whip and so what attracted me to him was he had run two campaigns on those subjects and then we had a series of conversations about how we address this issue, how we explain the huge trends there are pushing countries in this direction and how important it is that you have a government that says actually we are going to do something about it and that is what Labour is obviously saying in this campaign and that’s the action a Labour government will take so that’s the role that he’s playing.  In a way he is providing some of the expertise he has in making similar arguments to the arguments that we’re making.

DM: But also, perhaps unfortunately in this television age, he is also talking about the candidate and the presentation and we hear he has given you a bit of a makeover and made you more presentable for television.  Are we seeing the results?

ED MILIBAND: No, it is extraordinary that people write a lot of nonsense and honestly it is very wide of the mark.  We have talked about ideas and that’s absolutely what we’ve been talking about, this makeover stuff is nonsense. 

DM: Well you must talk about colours, look matching ties, I think about what shirt I wear and what tie I wear.

ED MILIBAND: I can absolutely promise you that I have never talked to David Axelrod about the colour of my tie! 

DM: But on presentation, let me ask you about the leaders’ debates, that is about the personalities of the leaders.  We are getting all kinds of different formulae put forward by all the different parties, are you more or less saying to David Cameron I’ll debate you wherever, whenever? 

ED MILIBAND: I am very keen that he does debate me and I find the position of the Tories quite hard to fathom on this because they seem to really not want the debates to happen and all kinds of stalling techniques.  One thing that needs to happen is that the negotiations about the debates need to start because the Conservatives are saying they can’t start until after the party conference.  Well that strikes me as somewhat playing for time.  I am keen the debates happen, I am keen David Cameron comes to the debates, I want to debate him but beyond that it’s a matter for you as a broadcaster and other broadcasters.  I’m not putting anything at the moment as a deal breaker in this.  I started by saying let’s have the same format as last time simply because we know that David Cameron agreed to that format and it would be very hard for him to not agree to that format again but look, that’s a matter for negotiation, it’s a matter for the broadcasters in the end. 

DM: Okay and it will be all about you representing Labour behind that podium whenever those debates take place. 

DAVID MILIBAND: Sure and I’m looking forward to it. 

DM: But on the issue of leadership, of you, there was a poll out yesterday wasn’t there saying one in four non Labour voters would consider voting Labour if Ed Miliband were not the leader.

ED MILIBAND: Well polls can tell you all kind of things.  I take the view that I leave poll watching to others and my job is to talk about what I believe.  I think that in this age where there is such discontent with politics, what people want is tell us what you want to do for me, tell us what you want to do for the country and that’s what I’m doing and I care passionately about the fact that so many people in this country don’t get a fair deal.  When I meet people as I did in Crawley town centre earlier on and they say please, is someone going to do something about housing?  We’re finding it hard enough to rent, we feel we have no prospect of being able to buy our home.   When people come up to me and say who’s going to stand up to the energy companies, who is going to change the way the banks work, that’s what I care about and I think most people are not watching the polls go up and down, they’re watching what’s happening in their own lives. 

DM: Are you still a one nation party?  You’re still one nation Labour? 

ED MILIBAND: Definitely, definitely, one nation is really important.  One nation is important because it is about Labour representing all parts of the country, it’s also important because it’s about where the country succeeds.  The Tories I think, think as long as a few people at the top do okay the wealth will trickle down …

DM: But my question is, they are part of the nation.  You don’t like posh boys, you’re one nation minus the posh boys, I’m thinking of that party election broadcast.

ED MILIBAND: No, I put it a different way Dermot, I say we need to make the country work for everyone, not just a few at the top.  The Tories think as long as a few at the top do okay, the wealth will trickle down.  I think something else, I think we’ve got to make sure that ordinary families in this country do okay because if they’re not doing okay it’s bad for our economy, it’s bad for our country.  People working 60, 70 hours a week just to try and make ends meet.  So it’s about everybody being part of this country and part of this society. 

DM: But in your book is it David Cameron’s alleged poshness, is that the reason that you say he doesn’t get it? You tell him at almost every Prime Minister’s questions that he doesn’t get it, doesn’t he get it because he is too posh to get what ordinary people are going through?

ED MILIBAND: If you are asking me is it because of where he went to school or wherever, no.  It is about what he believes and what he does.  I judge him on his deeds and the deeds I see, which that broadcast drew attention to, is he cut taxes to the richest people in our society.   

DM: There is a lot of parodying him as being posh and that he went to public school.   

ED MILIBAND: I don't think it’s a parody to say that for somebody on five million pounds, they got something like a £200,000 tax cut at the same time as he imposed the bedroom tax on the most vulnerable disabled people.  Now I judge them on their deeds and I think that makes the unimportance [inaudible] worth, I think it’s unfair.  That’s what I care about.    

DM: But he doesn’t understand what ordinary people are going through. 

ED MILIBAND: I think in his deeds he suggests that.  When I watch him at Prime Minister’s Questions, not just replying to me but replying to others, whether it’s on the bedroom tax or on people struggling to make ends meet when they go out to work or on tuition fees and he always says everything’s fixed, everything’s fine and I think, well that’s not the country I see when I go around Crawley town centre or I go elsewhere. 

DM: But the cost of living crisis is easing because we’re seeing official figures tell us, don’t they, that wages are just beginning to nudge up above inflation.  Is your argument beginning to diminish on that? 

ED MILIBAND: Look, I want to see as much improvement in people’s living standards as possible but I’ve got to tell you that when the Tories say the economy is fixed I think most people greet it with a kind of hollow sense of disbelief.  I met somebody on the train the other day in this campaign, they came up to me and said, Ed, you’ve got to do something about this issue of zero hours contracts, it’s making life so insecure for people.  I have had so many people on this campaign coming up to me saying I am really worried about housing, about energy bills, about the prospects for my kids.  You see this cost of living argument, I talked about David Axelrod earlier, this is a big argument which all countries around the world are wrestling with whether  it’s America or Australia, how are we going to build a decent life for people, is hard work going to be rewarded, is that link between hard work and building a better life for your family going to be restored or is it going to remain broken? 

DM: We’re going to take a short break now but after that we’re going to continue with that interview and in a moment we’ll find out if Ed Miliband will match David Cameron’s ambitious net migration target and if he thinks Syria is a better place  after his party voted against military action, stay with us. 

Before the break we heard Ed Miliband’s thoughts on Nigel Farage and his new election guru, David Alexrod.  In the second part of my interview with the Labour leader we began by discussing immigration and David Cameron has promised to get net migration down to the tens of thousands so I asked Ed Miliband if he would match that promise.

ED MILIBAND: Well that is a false promise, he’s miles away from his promise.  I think what politicians should not be doing is making promises on immigration that they can’t keep. 

DM: You say you’d bear down on it, what will you do? 

ED MILIBAND: Well let me say this, I’ve changed Labour’s approach on immigration.  In the past we know that Labour seemed dismissive of people’s concerns.  We were wrong, we were wrong, it was actually our attitude which was wrong and needed to change and I’ve changed that.  On policy I’ve said some very practical things, we want longer controls when new countries come into the European Union, we want to stop employers from not paying the minimum wage and just recruiting from abroad because that undercuts wages, we want to make sure people learn English when they are in public facing roles in the NHS or local councils so it is about a firm approach to immigration, recognising immigration benefits our country but I think it must be made to work for all and not just for some. 

DM: But the fundamental argument that UKIP deploy is that a lot of this migration comes from within the European Union and you can’t really do an awful lot about that if they are paid properly, if they don’t come to claim benefits, there is nothing you can do about it.

ED MILIBAND: Well this is where the debate, one of the debates, needs to happen.  They say let’s get out of Europe as a solution to that, I say that’s the wrong solution.  I think that our livelihoods, our jobs depend on that single market in Europe.  I don’t agree there is nothing you can do, I think if you train people here, provide more apprenticeships, if you make sure you do bear down on those employers who come here, I think it will reduce the pull in terms of low skilled migration and also you are training more people here to be ready to take the jobs that are available. 

DM: But you’d also offer people a referendum about whether they want to stay inside or outside the European Union and deal with issues like immigration.  The referendum that you might off would only be on any treaty change, Labour would never offer an in/out referendum. 

ED MILIBAND: No, that’s not right.  Our position is this, if there is any transfer of powers from Britain to the European Union we would have an in/out referendum, that’s a very clear pledge from Labour.  Now I’ve said that’s unlikely to happen in the next parliament because we’ve got no plans for that transfer of powers to take place but people now it’s happened in the past so it remains possible but I’ve also been open with people, Dermot, about my priorities for the country.  If I become Prime Minister I’d be focusing my efforts and time on tackling the cost of living crisis, the NHS, not saying let’s debate exiting the European Union so I’ve tried to give people an honest sense of my priorities.

DM: Now on the cost living crisis, we’ve had plenty of pronouncements during the course of this interview, we’ve heard them before about energy, about rents, in a sense are you becoming too consumerist, are you becoming the political wing of Which or something like that?

ED MILIBAND: I don't think it’s too bad to be worried about the bread and butter issues that people face but I think this is part of a bigger argument though.  It’s not just the immediate differences you can make, it’s how do you reform our banks so that you properly provide small businesses and grow the good jobs our country needs?  How do you give people the skills and training if we are going to attract those good businesses to this country?  So it’s as much a wealth creation agenda as it is about how we distribute the proceeds of wealth.

DM: People really liked those specific ideas you came up with, have you got more?  There are many other things that governments could do, that could look at that concern people about cost of living. Petrol prices, not an issue at the moment but you could set a maximum price for a litre of petrol, you could look at airline flights that are more expensive during holidays, you could look at the price of satellite subscriptions – all kinds of things. 

ED MILIBAND: Well I think it is important to look at all of these issues that people have concerns with on the cost of living. If I’ve got specific plans I’ll send them but …  

DM: But are you looking at things like that? 

ED MILIBAND: Well there are issues of competition in terms of petrol prices, of course there is, I’m not about to set a maximum price for petrol if that’s what you’re asking but it is the case that we’ve laid out in this campaign on energy, on childcare, on housing, on low wages, on issues around how we build homes for people in this country, real concrete and tangible pledges that will make a difference to people.  Issues such as GP access, a massive issue for many people, I think people should be able to get an appointment with a GP in 48 hours, the Tories seem to think that is undeliverable, so I’m proud of the fact that in an age where people are asking ‘What difference are you going to make to my life?’ we’re laying out very, very concrete changes that we would make.

DM: What about this Pfizer bid for AstraZeneca, a threat in some quarters some people say to jobs and research in Britain, would a Labour government, if that bid were not completely finished by the time it comes to power, would a Labour government block that?

ED MILIBAND: Well yes, if it’s the case that the deal has not gone through, we would have a public interest test and if the public interest test looking at whether it’s in our nations interest to have this Pfizer takeover of AstraZeneca, if it concludes that it’s not in the nation’s interests we would block the deal.   That is obviously the right thing to do.  Here’s the thing, this is a takeover of a great British company, it’s the largest takeover in corporate history, we’ve got a situation where Pfizer has got a record including in the UK which people are concerned about.  You have got a people across the scientific community deeply anxious about this and you’ve got a government waving it through acting as the cheerleader for this deal. I don't think that’s the right thing to do.  I’ll stand up for British jobs and the British national interest and if that means having that objective test and if that objective test concludes it is not in the national interest, then of course the deal should be blocked.

DM: So in a way we should be more like the French on these kinds of things, they just issued a Presidential decree to stop General Electric taking over Alstom. 

ED MILIBAND: Look, I’m not going to compare ourselves to other countries, other countries have a different way of doing things but what is really important in this is to have that objective test.  My objection to the government on this is that they are not willing, and indeed Pfizer is part of this too, Pfizer said it is in the UK national interests to have this takeover take place, that’s one of their claims so look, whether it’s Pfizer or the government, let’s put it to the test.  Let’s have that objective test and see whether it’s in our national interest and if it isn’t, it should be blocked.

DM: Mr Miliband, the Governor of the Bank of England says there are deep, deep structural problems in Britain’s housing market which he can do nothing about, that is down to governments and it’s about building houses, what would you do?

ED MILIBAND:  Well I think that Mark Carney is right about this, there is a real problem of housing supply in this country, the amount of house building has been at its lowest level since the 1920s and that’s why Labour has a plan to say we want to build 200,000 a year by the end of the next parliament.  Now what does that involve?  It involves saying to developers they can’t just sit on land with planning permission so we have use it or lose it powers to say you can’t just sit on the land forever.  We’d also say that we want to see new towns and garden cities and also crucially allow local authorities that want to expand to do so, so I think Mark Carney is right, there are deep problems with the supply of housing in this country and many people around the country are seeing for themselves, there is such an affordability crunch when it comes to our homes and it is a massive priority for the next Labour government.

DM: It’s going to take a while to get all those houses built, in between time do you think there is a dangerous housing bubble building in parts?

ED MILIBAND: I think there is concern, definitely there is a lot of cause for concern about the stability of the housing market and what we are seeing in parts of the country.  In the end those questions at the moment are questions for the Governor of the Bank of England and indeed the government but I say they should get on with it, they should get on with making a difference to housing supply because it is essential for families and essential for economic stability as well.

DM: Last question on foreign policy Mr Miliband, Syria, do you think that Syria is now a better place as a result of you and your party blocking international military action against President Assad?

ED MILIBAND: Well I think it is deeply distressing what is happening in Syria but I think we took the right decision because the decision that was on the table…

DM: But it seems as if Assad is winning.

ED MILIBAND: As I say, it is very bad what is happening in Syria but look, the decision on the table was this which is in relation to the chemical weapons attack that had taken place, did we take military action on that issue?  Now there was no prospect of us getting rid of President Assad’s chemical weapons on that basis…

DM: But you might have got rid of President Assad.

ED MILIBAND: But look, when you intervene in countries you’ve got to do so on the right basis.  Now what is the basis?  You’ve got to know what your strategy is, you’ve got to have proper international support and you’ve got to know you are not going to make the situation worse.  Now my judgment about that proposal that was made was that it would have made the situation a lot worse.  Now the situation in Syria is terrible and it is a terrible humanitarian situation but I’ve got to say to you, the only solution in Syria is a political and humanitarian solution.  I don’t believe that a military intervention by Western countries would have made that difference, particularly in relation to that chemical weapons issue where actually we have now got an agreement – admittedly incomplete and still not properly yet implemented – to get rid of those chemical weapons.

DM: Leader of the Opposition, thank you very much indeed.

ED MILIBAND: Thank you very much.  

DM: Ed Miliband there.