ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the war in Syria has been going on for nearly three years and in that time there have been persistent calls for regime change but now the world seems to be coming round to the idea that President Assad is not standing down soon, at least for now. So as a new round of peace talks begin this week in Switzerland, does Assad have a role in Syria’s future. Later in the programme I will be speaking to one of Mr Assad’s relatives and to our former Ambassador in Syria, Sir Andrew Green, but with me in the studio now is the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas Alexander. Mr Alexander, I want to talk mainly about Syria but I want to start first of all with Afghanistan and no doubt you want to pay tribute to Labour’s candidate in the European elections who was killed in that awful bomb attack in Kabul on Friday.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Yes, it was a callous and cowardly murder. He was a Labour candidate but he was also an aid worker and a campaigner for justice and it speaks to the fact that that kind of terrible, terrible attack is just the politics of nihilism, it offers nothing to the international community but most importantly it offers nothing to the international community or to the people of Afghanistan. He was there trying to help the people of Afghanistan and that’s why even in the remaining months when there are international combat forces in the country, it is important that the work continues to build up the Afghan security forces so that they can step up as the international forces step back.

DM: But time is running out. After a 13 year mission we are now down to the last few months and the capital itself that is supposed to be running the country is demonstrably not safe.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well the Taliban have been attempting for many years what, in the terrible parlance of war is called spectaculars, in Kabul. They have been unsuccessful many more times than they have been successful in bringing that terror to the capital but you are right to recognise that it’s still an environment that is very challenged in terms of security and that’s why there is a very important burden of responsibility on the Afghan security forces.

DM: Okay, well let’s turn to Syria now. We’ve got some peace talks with some of the opposition there, the Assad regime, obviously some notable exceptions there. What are your hopes for that? I mean expectations must be well dampened down there.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well obviously my hopes are limited but given the scale of the slaughter that we are still witnessing in Syria, it is vital that these talks take place. I welcome the fact that the Syrian National Council agreed yesterday in Turkey to come to the talks on Wednesday in Switzerland but if you talk about what can actually be achieved, given that we are dealing with both the regime and with rebel forces still engaged in heavy combat in Syria, I think we have got to be realistic as to what we should aim for. Certainly I would hope that a process would be put in place this week that could be carried forward; there are individual confidence building measures that I think should be worked towards, whether that is corridors of humanitarian access so that people can actually reach the many millions of people in suffering within Syria. In addition to that, localised cease fire, in addition to that making sure perhaps that we could see prisoner exchanges which is one of the other measures which has been talked about. So I think there are some achievable confidence building measures that could be aimed at this week, at the same time as working towards a longer term engagement between all of the sides. I have argued for many months that there should be …

DM: Baby steps and humanitarian issues.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: We want some small steps but also I think we need some structural change. I’ve argued for Iran to be part of a contact group bringing together if you like the principal sponsors to the conflict, given how difficult it is to find a way forward.

DM: So not at these talks but sitting in an [ante-room] or something like that?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well I pressed the Foreign Secretary in the House of Commons on exactly this issue. I think it will be a matter of regret if Iran is not at these talks because on any reckoning, given its heavy responsibility, supporting Assad, providing troops, providing weapons, it’s a key actor on the Syrian stage and as we’ve seen with the chemical weapons deal, once you get those previous adversaries – this case Russia and other countries – together, you can actually make some progress so I think it will be a matter of regret if Iran is not there but it is still important to try and make progress.

DM: Let me ask you about the humanitarian side of things, do you think Britain could play a bigger role for instance in accepting refugees? We all know about the huge strain that those refugees are putting on neighbouring countries, Jordan, Turkey, all kind of countries but what about Britain? Shouldn’t we bear a share of this?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: I think there are three approaches that need to be taken. First of all, and I think Britain is getting this right, there is significant support going in to humanitarian work both on the edges of the country and in the neighbouring countries. Secondly, I think we should do more to support those neighbouring countries, think of the number of refugees that are now resident within Turkey, within Lebanon, within Jordan, I think the British government should look at what further regional support can be given and yes, I do think consideration should be given to the whole international community, recognising its responsibilities in relation to refugees, for example those with very severe medical conditions who perhaps are not able to receive the kind of treatment that they need where they are in camps in Jordan or in Turkey.

DM: I’ve got to turn to President Assad. Okay, the regime at the talks, it’s about regime change, that’s the only condition that the opposition are going to go to those talks about, it’s about changing the regime. Well that’s not what Assad says, Assad has just come up on the Reuters news wire here and says he is not ready to give up power, the issue is not up for discussion at these talks. I mean that’s the point isn’t it?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well that’s not altogether surprising that Assad should say this.

DM: It’s not altogether surprising but you can’t make him go either can you?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: But you face a pretty brutal choice, is it better for there to be talks albeit with genuine and continuing disagreements between the parties even about what the talks are aiming for or to have no talks at all? Now given the fact that we are now looking at more than two million people displaced within the country … two million displaced across the region, six million displaced within the country, more than 125,000 people have died in the last two or three years, I think it is better to have representatives of Assad in the room talking than not to be present albeit that the opposition have only turned up on the basis that there would be a transitional government formed by consent and you are absolutely right, the opposition parties will make clear that for them to consent to a transitional government will require the absence not the presence of Assad.

DM: And Assad saying it’s not even going to be on the table there. The Assad regime saying, as they have always said since 2011, we are fighting international terrorism. It may not have been the case in 2011, it’s looking a bit more like that now, doesn’t he have a point?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well it is certainly the case that there are jihadis of international fighters now within Syria but I think that strengthens the argument for finding the only long term solution which is an inclusive political settlement. The only basis to get that inclusive political settlement is to have talks, often with parties who disagree profoundly, indeed who are trying to kill each other within Syria, which is why what happens on Wednesday I hope is the start of another chapter in the Syrian story.

DM: But how concerned are you about radicalisation taking place in Syria? We’ve heard about German concerns, French concerns, we know about our own security services and all the work they’re doing, there is real radicalisation going on in …

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: One of the questions I asked the Foreign Secretary was could he give me the assurance that I was looking for that the British intelligence agencies are doing everything they can to monitor for example the number of British citizens who have gone in as foreign fighters into Syria but the truth is this is no longer simply a Syrian issue, we have a crescent of crisis that stretches from Iraq, you saw the difficulties in terms of Al Qaeda and Fallujah, you see what is happening in Syria, you see the attempts that are being made for AQ to get a foothold within Lebanon and actually this does demand that co-ordinated regional response of which I’ve been working …

DM: So doesn’t Assad have a point? He’s doing all he can to fight Al Qaeda.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Listen, Assad bears very heavy responsibility for the murder and the slaughter that we’re witnessing within Syria and I think before he starts trying to persuade the international community of other people’s vices, there has to be a degree of humility as to his own responsibility. What started as a democratic process, he’s turned into not just a civil war but what we risk now is a regional war by proxy.

DM: Okay, thank you for that. I want to turn now to your role as general election co-ordinator, we had your leader on the Andrew Marr Show just a few minutes ago and it seems now after much criticism of Labour for not giving any policies out, we are getting some very detailed, step by step, practical and credible solutions to what you define as the cost of living crisis. Are we going to see more of that in the next few weeks?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: That’s another question that is unexpected!

DM: But are we going to see more of that with the election more than a year away?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Of course. As we move through the parliament of course we are going to be setting out specific practical policies we think should be taken that address both the immediate concerns of living standards in the country but also looks at the longer term changes that are needed so we can earn our …

DM: You know what the opposition is saying, the government is say, the Conservatives are saying, that this is about quick fixes, you’ve got no long term plan.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well if you look for example at the changes that Ed Miliband set out on Friday in terms of the banks, the fact that we have got a serious problem with retail banking in this country, that fact that all too often the small businesses of this country seem to be serving the banks rather than the banks supporting and serving the small businesses, that’s pretty profound change and in that sense, whether it is long term change in relation to banking, whether it is long term change in terms of small businesses, those are exactly the steps we’ll be setting out as well as the immediate responses like resetting the energy market and putting in place a price freeze while those changes are put in place.

DM: But if you look at the team that Mr Miliband is going to lead into battle, do you have a gap right at the core of economic policy, I’m talking about the Shadow Chancellor here, we’re hearing he’s lost his mojo. He predicted a triple dip recession, it didn’t happen. Is Ed Balls not really punching above his weight?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Listen, I think there is no doubt, not least on the basis of what Ed Miliband said this morning on the Andrew Marr programme, that Ed is going to be an absolutely key, central and I think very positive figure in terms of taking that case to the Conservatives about why they flatlined the economy for three years but also setting out the kind of structural changes we need to the economy so that we can grow and earn our way to higher living standards in the future.

DM: Mm, but he’s lost his mojo is what I said, he predicted that triple dip recession and there wasn’t even a double dip, he was hoping for it.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: These stories come and go in the newspapers, I think what’s important is having a plan for the kind of economy that we want, having the intellectual rigour and policy strength to actually be able to devise the solutions for the challenges the country faces and in that sense I think we’ve got a team that can take us to victory.

DM: But you two don’t always see eye to eye, you had a stand up row at the very least about Europe.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Listen, I’ve worked with Ed for twenty … in fact I’ve worked with both Ed’s for twenty years and in that sense one of the resolutions that we made when we moved into opposition in 2010, because we had front row seats at the TBGBs, was we were never going to allow any differences, any personality issues to get in the way of our shared responsibilities …

DM: But behind closed doors you must speak as you see, you know each other so well, you’ve grown up politically together.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: I think it’s a good thing that as a team you can debate, discuss and then decide and move forward and that’s what we’ve done. That’s why I think actually we haven’t done what previous generations of Labour politicians have done when they went into opposition which is to form a circular firing squad and in about a decade get their act together. The fact that we are ahead in the opinion polls, the fact that we are making plans for the kind of country that we think Labour could deliver after 2015, I think is testimony to the extent to which we’ve shown we will work together in the national interest.

DM: But have you sorted out … we hear that the row between you and Ed Balls was about Europe policy, are you very clear about how Labour will go into the general election on Europe? Will you be offering some kind of referendum or only a referendum if there is substantial treaty change?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well firstly on Europe we believe the right road for Britain is reform in Europe and not exit from Europe. If you had as many cabinet members in there are as many different answers from the Tories on that side. In relation to the referendum, we believe the only basis on which a decision like that can be made is not actually the internal divisions like in the Tory party but in the national interest and we judge the national interest as this: we don’t think committing now to an in/out referendum in the future is the right choice for the country. That was our position last week, it was our position last year…

DM: Will it stay in that position? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: ... the party that seems to be shifting about I’m afraid is the Conservative party.

DM: Okay, last thought on these televised leaders’ debates, they took part in 2010, are Labour bang up for it so to speak?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Absolutely, between Christmas and New Year I made clear in an interview that we wanted to start the negotiations in this year with what we’ve called the 3-3-3 formula, that is three leaders with three debates over three weeks. Since then I welcome the fact that Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, has embraced the proposition I put on the table but there risks being an empty seat at those negotiations and that’s the seat that should be filled by David Cameron so I’m very happy to reiterate my challenge today to David Cameron – don’t run, don’t hide, bring yourself to the table, let’s start the basis of negotiations with the successful formula from 2010. The British people I think deserve to have the people who are offering themselves as Prime Minister willing to put themselves forward for a job interview at the time of the election.

DM: Shadow Foreign Secretary, thank you very much indeed. Douglas Alexander there.