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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: A former Google executive has accused the company of cheating the tax payer out of hundreds of millions of pounds. The whistle blower claims the company has been running an immoral tax avoidance scheme for the past decade. Now that comes as the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, has vowed to curb corporate tax avoidance and I’m joined now by the Shadow Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Chris Leslie, very good to see you Mr Leslie. I’m sure you’d agree with an awful lot of what Harriet Green was saying at the end there but isn’t this like wrestling with a cloud, trying to get huge multi-national corporations like this with so many operations in so many different countries to pay more tax in this country?

CHRIS LESLIE: Well I think that is a reasonable point, things are moving very quickly and of course the rules are in place but I always feel they are playing catch up with some of those very clever accountants and I think the real issue is actually that the public see some of these big brand names on the high street and then when they hear that supposedly they are making minuscule or no profits at all, it just doesn’t stack up, it just doesn’t ring true.

DM: I used the word immoral there from this whistle blower, is that the pressure that Labour would put on and say look, okay, there may be rules and regulations you can deal with and you have loads of clever accountants here but what about the morality of it all?

CL: Well if there is a morality then it is the politicians who have to change the rules, it’s the law that has to be tightened up and I think we are very clear, Ed Miliband is absolutely clear today that he’s saying look, we’ve got this G8 meeting coming up in the middle of June, let’s get a firm international agreement to get a grip of this particular issue but if this government currently aren’t strong enough to secure that negotiation then Britain is going to have to act …

DM: But other government’s might not want to do it so what would Labour do?

CL: Other governments though are also finding it difficult to secure their tax base in that particular way and these clever multi-national companies are playing the system and they are very adept at doing that. So every other jurisdiction should also have an interest in ….

DM: Okay, they should but what if they don’t does Britain under Labour go it alone?

CL: Well I think we can’t tolerate this ‘it’s for others to decide’ any longer. We need action and if that means us starting, absolutely let’s do that. Let’s have country by country reporting and proper disclosure, get rid of some of the secrecy about what’s happening in those particular accounts and there are other changes that we should make in terms of forcing firms to disclose tax avoidance schemes, not just here but in other countries as well, some of these sort of transfer pricing arrangements on intellectual property, claiming that sales transactions, well that’s not really the definition here. Let’s tighten up these particular rules but the public, as I say, are fed up of companies playing the system in this way and it needs a firm need from the Treasury to get a grip.

DM: Of course they are but you’ve got to be careful as a party, haven’t you, and if you become a government, of sounding too shrill, too anti-business. I’ve been around many, many companies that have set up from overseas in this country over the years, plenty of them over the Labour years and you ask them why did you come here and they say two things: we came here because you are part of the EU and you offered us a good tax deal. Labour cut corporation tax like every other government.

CL: Well look, the part of the EU is again another problem is having right now but let me take this point …

DM: But they like the low tax policy.

CL: Let me take this point on. I don't think it’s anti-business to say these large firms should be paying their fair share, it is actually a pro-business message because it’s about trust. Not just trust between customers and the banks and we know the cultural issues that they’ve been grappling with, but it’s about rebuilding trust between the public as consumers and the firms from which they are buying goods and services, it is about responsible capitalism if you like, that’s the theme that Ed Miliband has been absolutely right to raise and it’s I think now time that we gripped this issue, changed the law if necessary but also take a lead in those international negotiations, not get distracted into what we’re doing in Europe or not in Europe, it’s about leadership and it starts from the top of the government.

DM: Yes, but a company with international shareholders, shareholders overseas, may well look at Britain, the UK, under the Labour party and say look, it’s quite a simple calculation isn’t it, we’re going to pay more tax there so okay, we’ll headquarter in Ireland or somewhere else within the EU and we can still trade with the United Kingdom?

CL: I just don’t believe this argument that they’re all going to flee and somehow the tax revenues will disappear, that way all of these jurisdictions are going to have a race to the bottom. I think what we’ve got to do is stand firm, build bridges and alliances with those other countries and let’s crack down on this particular issue. The public I think have had enough and the more that they see about these contorted corporate structures in order to get around particular tax rules, more contortions than a magician’s assistant, I mean it’s quite ridiculous but it needs the Treasury to wake up and stop being so distracted with placating their backbenchers all the time.

DM: Okay, Chris Leslie, thank you very much indeed for your thoughts there.