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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the toxic political issue of gay marriage is back, the Same Sex Marriage Bill will return to parliament tomorrow and over a hundred Conservative MPs are set to oppose it but it’s easy to forget that 22 Labour MPs and four Liberal Democrats voted against it last time round so will it ever become law? In a moment I speak to the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper and to the former Conservative Minister, Nick Herbert. Well let’s say a very good morning to Yvette Cooper. First of all Yvette Cooper, the issue of gay marriage is, as I said there, dividing and upsetting the Conservative party but elements within your own ranks that are against it?

YVETTE COOPER: Well in fact the overwhelming majority of Labour MPs voted for this Bill at second reading and will vote for it again this week and I think that’s right because this is something I think we should celebrate and not discriminate. When people want to get married they should be able to do so regardless of their gender and sexuality and I think it’s a real problem if this gets lost in the vortex of the Tory in-fighting that we had over the last couple of weeks when actually it’s a really positive Bill that we should all want to celebrate.

DM: Well celebration, you’ve used that twice, do you celebrate what’s going on in the Conservative party not just over this but accusations of ‘swivel-eyed loons’ and Europe?

YC: It does seem to be becoming very frenzied and I think it is a problem. They are obviously spending a lot more time talking about each other, arguing about who’s a loon and who’s not a loon, I mean it’s very odd I think, this behaviour and of course it does weaken David Cameron’s leadership in a serious way so whether that’s talking about equal marriage, which of course he originally championed, whether that’s talking about Europe where there do seem to be big differences, huge divides now within the Conservative party, it is a problem because of course this is having real consequences for the country to have a government so racked and riven in this way.

DM: But wouldn’t you like to congratulate him on holding the line over gay marriage? He’s come up with it, he’s pushed it through and he’s not deviating?

YC: Well I think David Cameron was exactly right to bring this legislation forward, as I said, that’s why we supported it from the Labour party and I would pay tribute to Nick Herbert, who I think you are speaking to next, who has consistently advocated this but the trouble is of course that the Prime Minister has now gone silent on it and actually it would be really good to have him out arguing for it now, arguing for it tomorrow and Tuesday and be very positive and proud about this and instead, because of the in-fighting in the Conservative party because of what’s happened over the last few weeks and because of the weakness of his leadership, he’s not been able to do so and I don’t want this Bill to be seen as something that we shouldn’t talk about, something that’s just an embarrassment to be rushed through. It’s the right thing to do because it gives the chance for people who love each other to marry and to celebrate their weddings just like anybody else.

DM: And talking about leadership, there are questions being asked about your own leader saying why isn’t he becoming more popular as all this goes on? The latest polling still showing that when it comes to leadership the Prime Minister is still holding his position.

YC: Well I think that Ed is doing a very good job, I think that he has managed to unite the Labour party. It was obviously a difficult defeat for us in 2010 and actually under Ed’s leadership we have been building, we have been winning back council seats, we won back 300 council seats in the last local elections and making big progress. We know that we have still got a lot more work to do, all of us and we’ll keep doing that and listening to people but I think Ed’s doing an extremely good job.

DM: A lot of this, a lot of Conservative troubles we’ve been discussing of course flowing from the issue of a referendum, UKIPs rise and a referendum on Europe. When you advise Mr Miliband, do you think eventually Labour is going to have to say whether it thinks the British people should be offered a referendum or not in its 2015 Manifesto?

YC: Well we’ve always said the most important thing right now is to get the economy growing and the problem is, if you’re not concentrating on jobs, on growth and instead talking about potential referendums in four years’ time, three years’ time, I think that’s just not the right way to get investment coming into Britain from foreign investors, from international companies, who will look at the uncertainty surrounding this, withhold their investment and that has an impact on people’s jobs, people’s living standards right now and every time I talk to people on the streets, every time I talk to people on the doorstep, it’s jobs and living standards that are the biggest concerns that people have. That’s what we have got to concentrate on.

DM: Okay, Shadow Home Secretary, thank you very much indeed for your time. Yvette Cooper there. Well I’m joined now by the senior Tory, former Police Minister, Nick Herbert. Very good to see you Mr Herbert and generous tribute paid to you there by Yvette Cooper for your position on gay marriage but they are also saying that David Cameron needs to become more visible on this, I suppose get those rebellious ranks in your party into line.

NICK HERBERT: I don't think that’s fair because after all this was the leader of the Conservative party who spoke at his first party conference about this and he has been absolutely consistent in showing leadership in this area and saying really this is a change whose time has come and I appreciate there are those that are unsettled by this. Actually the opinion polls are pretty clear that there is strong public support for this and it is increasing in support and this is a change that’s actually happening around the world. Since the second reading of the Bill in February, two other countries have backed same sex marriage, the President of France just signed a Bill yesterday and also New Zealand, Canada, Argentina – a Catholic country, Spain, lots of countries are doing this because it reflects changing attitudes towards gay people.

DM: But what do you say then to your colleagues, what do you say to the hundred or more colleagues of yours who are saying no, it’s not the thing we should be doing? Are you saying, get with the 21st century?

NH: What we’re saying is this isn’t a Bill that will harm anyone. Nobody has to enter into a marriage, no church will be forced to conduct a gay marriage because the protections are there, the Church of England has said it is happy with the protections that have been given, they don’t have to do it so actually what harm is being done by this Bill? None. And for those that are concerned about their own beliefs and so on, well they are entitled to their own beliefs. Actually for the majority this is something that people are saying does reflect changing society and I think the general sense in the Conservative party is yes, there were divisions about this but actually the House of Commons has spoken by actually quite a big majority and I suspect it will do so again this week. It then moves to the Lords and what I think what people want to say now is all right, let’s make sure the protections are there but let’s move on.

DM: But do you think quite a lot of this is now not to do, in terms of your own party, is not to do with the issue itself but it’s to do with Mr Cameron and there are those that scent blood in the water and it is manna from heaven for them, this comes up the weekend after the day after the weekend when we have all been discussing swivel eyed loons.

NH: It just happens that it’s Monday and Tuesday when we’ve got the final stages of scrutiny in the Commons and actually there are some sensible issues we need to discuss about that but I think that there is a general wish in the Conservative party that actually we focus on the issues that are really going to decide the next election and those include the economy and recovery and we don’t want to obscure the good news that is coming out, with Mervyn King saying just last week that the economy is recovering, and that we have actually a very strong position in these areas and we are united in these areas.

DM: So you are saying to the whingers, shut up?

NH: This is a conscience issue, we have free votes in the House of Commons precisely because sometimes there is disagreement between Members of Parliament and actually that is true across the parties but the majority of Members of Parliament believe, in common with the rest of the country and the population at large, that this is a change whose time has come.

DM: Okay, Mr Herbert, thank you very much, good to see you. Nick Herbert there.