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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now on Thursday, the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke, will publish the Justice and Security Bill. It’s one of the most controversial laws announced in the Queen’s Speech, partly because of its provisions for so-called secret courts that would allow for some evidence, in some cases, to be heard in private. Let’s say a very good morning now to the Justice Secretary, Kenneth Clarke, who joins us now from Nottingham. Mr Clarke, on the subject of secret courts, it’s often said that one of the cornerstones of our freedoms are our open and accountable courts, would you be proud to be the Lord Chancellor that brought in secret courts?

KEN CLARKE: Certainly not in the way that my critics are now describing it. When I announced what I was proposing last October there was no fuss, everybody agreed, particularly as I combined it with tighter parliamentary control of MI5 and MI6. No evidence that is given in open court at the moment is going to be given in secret under our proposals, what we’re talking about is evidence which might be given by spies about their sources, their technologies, what they know, none of which is ever given in open court in any country in the world including Britain. Sometimes it’s absolutely key to the civil claim, the claim for damages for example, being brought against the government and what we have set out are arrangements whereby what are called Closed Proceedings can hear that part of the evidence, just as goes on now in some courts, so there’ll be more evidence given, the security services will be more accountable and I shall be trying on Thursday to explain to my critics that I haven’t given up my well-known liberal views, I do not think you should give up your freedom because you are frightened for your safety but I actually think we will have better justice if the judge is able to take into account all the evidence that’s really relevant to claims brought by people such as the Guantanamo Bay detainees whom we paid a lot of money to recently because we couldn’t put the evidence up against them.

DM: But your own reviewer of terror laws, David Anderson, said he had seen nothing to persuade him that we need in these certain circumstances secret courts.

KC: Well other judges disagree with him and unfortunately, what I do accept that when we went out to consultation which we did last October, the House of Commons seemed very happy when I announced this, the press, even the serious press, seemed reasonably content. We perhaps raised it rather loosely so I hope on Thursday to persuade people that we are as committed to the principles of freedom we are trying to protect as we ever were in opposition. What we are trying to do is have more evidence given to courts where the evidence has to be given in closed proceedings because it will be really dangerous for national security if these witnesses cheerily got up in front of the parties and the public and started explaining how they got information that they thought was reliable and trying to explain what they thought was the actual national security threatening background to things that they did. We’re then actually as ordinary citizens, you and me, the evidence covers what the judge thinks of the defence. At the moment the people make allegations, the security services deny it, there is no evidence given at all, the public, the taxpayer, pays millions of pounds worth of damages and we never know what someone’s judgement was of the result. I’d like to know whether the explanations will hold water when the judges are able to hear the relevant evidence.

DM: But crucial to all this is who defines the evidence or the material is sensitive? We all know the tendency of the security services to more or less say everything they gather, well that’s sensitive, that shouldn’t be heard in open court. Who has oversight of this and makes sure that it really shouldn’t be heard in open court?

KC: Well that’s pretty key, I quite agree, and I agree that some of our critics were quite rightly rather sensitive about that. The Minister is going to actually make the application, is going to start it off but there’s a suspicion that Ministers might sometimes say could we have in closed hearings things that we might find rather embarrassing if it was given publicly. The final decision will be with the judge, only the judge can decide whether it’s sensible to say there’s a serious risk to national security here, this evidence is really relevant to these proceedings, I need to hear this before I can really form a proper view on the merits and the judge will have the last say. That I hope will be the important reassurance to my critics. I’m surprised by some of my critics, the Liberal critics are people I always agree with and I share their views on the importance of the rule of law. The Daily Mail I’ve been attacked in before but not in this way. I think the Daily Mail did a bit of a service actually because if you look at the Green Paper it could be allowing Ministers and officials to start putting a lot of things in secret. It’s all about spies, it’s all about national security and the judge will in the end have the decision as to whether he agrees that national security is at risk.

DM: Okay, well very reassuring on that issue, can you be reassuring on the eurozone crisis? What’s your take on Greece, do you agree with so many people that it’s not a matter of if any more but when Greece has to exit the euro?

KC: Well the Greek voters have to really face up to reality. It’s very, very difficult for them, they are having a terrible time, these are hardships inflicted on them by the irresponsibility of their old politicians but they can’t just vote for saying could people please carry on giving us some money so we don’t have to change anything. If they get a hopeless lot of cranky extremists elected at the next election then they will default on their debt and everybody says they will leave the euro, actually that’s quite likely but it doesn’t necessarily follow, but they’ll default on their debt. The problem then is for the Greeks that will be disastrous, they will encounter real poverty I think. No one knows exactly what will happen in the rest of Europe but the banking system is in tatters, it’s weak in very many places, we don’t know what the knock-on effects could be, they could be very serious and of course people will start barking at the door of Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Spain and here in Britain our banks are heavily exposed to some of these countries. We recapitalised and so far we actually do have consequences where markets get into turmoil. I obviously hope the Greeks will vote responsibly and I hope that we can avoid turmoil. It is the unknown that everybody fears and once the markets fear the unknown you get into terrible turmoil.

DM: It doesn’t look like that at the moment, does it, the way the Greeks will vote. I mean we can’t second guess that but you mentioned Spain and there is already the beginnings it seems in places of a run on some of the Spanish banks. In those circumstances should Britain put more money into an IMF fund that might have to shore them up?

KC: Well Britain has got to be part of the international effort and we’ve also supported the IMF. It is utterly ludicrous that the British do not take part and the Japanese and Chinese and these other major economic powers in actually using the IMF for what we’ve always said it’s for, which is supporting these things. The IMF exists to enable the nations of the world to act together to avoid economic consequences, whether the problems are coming from the eurozone or wherever. When we’ve had irresponsible government in the past we’ve gone to the IMF and on this occasion we must contribute in line with other major powers. It’s a pity the Americans are so paralysed by their pre-election arguments that they are not able to contribute but all the more reason for the British, the Brazilians, the Chinese and others to be persuaded to put in because it’s quite essential. The idea that we all watch each other go down is wrong and also I’m very glad we’re intervening in Europe and giving our voice because we are a European country and we’re dependent on the European economy. There’s a silly argument going on about are we in favour of growth or are we in favour of austerity. You need both, if there is any politician in Europe who isn’t in favour of growth he’s an idiot, we’ve been in favour of growth ever since we got in. It has to be combined with fiscal discipline so you can’t do as Ed Balls describes and say a policy for growth involves borrowing more money. That is absolutely ludicrous but sensible policies for growth like completing the single market, reforming the labour markets, rebalancing the European economy, having some structural reforms. We’ve got to join in with the Germans, with the French, with the other sensible politicians, with the very good Prime Minister of Italy, in arguing for a combination of the two as we have been actually for the last twelve months.

DM: You mentioned Ed Balls there, the Shadow Chancellor and he has joined forces with Peter Mandelson, suggesting that Labour might at some point countenance a referendum again on our membership of the European Union. You’ve heard that from your own back benchers for so many years, do you think given what’s going on there now might be the time to consider that?

KC: I can’t think of anything more irrelevant to the present situation actually and nor personally can I think of anything more disastrous than the British leaving the European Union and deciding now is the moment to take up splendid isolation alongside Iceland and others. I don't think that is … it has very little to do with the present crisis. The Labour party is led by Ed Miliband, Ed Balls, this is Gordon Brown’s old private office, this is his fan club. They were as irresponsible as the Greeks have been when they were in office. All the rules, the single currency and the European Union was meant to have about fiscal discipline were broken by Gordon Brown as much as they were broken by the Greeks so the advice of Ed and shouldn’t we just borrow a little more money and meanwhile because I see that there are some Tory back benchers on the nationalist right still demanding a referendum on the EU, shouldn’t the Labour party join in to embarrass the government I think is just one of those things we have to put up with. Fortunately our irresponsible politicians are firmly in opposition and remain there. Britain has probably got more confidence in its economic management in the markets of the world than practically any other western power but we’ve got years actually of quite heavy lifting to do before we get back to normality here.

DM: Can I just ask you finally, Justice Secretary, how hard is the government working on this crisis? We are told you are straining every sinew yet we hear that the Prime Minister likes a bit of down time. No harm in that but is he overdoing it a bit with his video games, his odd glass of wine and his tennis machine?

KC: Well you have to have a little light relief in politics and that’s light relief and actually everybody has to have some time on their own. I can assure you, I am obviously a bit of an anorak myself I’ve been doing it for so long, taking up the life of a Minister when the opportunity has afforded it, it is an absolute grindstone. I don’t want to stand here on behalf of the trade union of minister of the United Kingdom and the western world but you have to be a workaholic to do it and particularly if you are Prime Minister and you cover the whole scene, you really have to put the work in. David has a quite different metabolism to me, he appears to get up at the crack of dawn and I hear him referring to people on Farming Today on the radio. I have not listened to Farming Today for many years but you might find me with a brandy and a cigar at one o’clock in the morning working on my papers. No, George Osborne and particularly David Cameron, both are earnestly working. It is not possible to survive in politics by skiving but it’s very useful to remain a member of the human race and you do have a family, you do have other things to just remind you what life is about. It’s political gossip stuff, we’ve had all this for years. Macmillan used to read Trollope novels, he assured us when he was Prime Minister, modern government is more demanding than that and David Cameron is doing a more than full time job.

DM: Okay, Secretary of State, thank you very much indeed. Justice Secretary, Lord Chancellor, Ken Clarke there.