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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now if President Putin does not change his approach to Ukraine, then Europe and the West must fundamentally change their approach to Russia.  Those are the words today of the Prime Minister, David Cameron, but that’s all they are so far, words.  Meanwhile the bodies of hundreds of passengers of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 lie strewn across the Ukrainian countryside.   So what can the international community do now and does this crisis have the potential to spiral further out of control?  I’m joined now from Oxfordshire by the former British Ambassador to the United Nations, Sir Jeremy Greenstock, a very good morning to you Sir Jeremy.  Well it seems almost beyond doubt that Russia has major responsibilities for this tragedy, what diplomatic action should flow?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK:    Well obviously there is a huge amount of pressure on Russia to allow a proper investigation.  It’s a catastrophe that nobody intended obviously but it’s a bad mistake by whoever fired this missile and it’s pretty clear to everybody in the West that it was either the pro-Russian rebels or a Russian team themselves and Russia has to take responsibility for this, so pressure internationally with leaders speaking out, pressure in the Security Council for a proper investigation.  We do want to know the facts so if the Russians or the pro-Russians are covering up what happened here then that’s just going to make it worse for them unless they have real evidence that it was somebody else.

DM: There are two issues, two timescales here aren’t there from what you say there, the immediate investigation and indeed recovery of the remains of those who perished in this attack, that has to happen as soon as possible and should have been happening by now surely.  How do we in the West force the Russians and their acolytes on the ground there in Ukraine to allow that to happen?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: Well it’s pressure, the Russians know that sanctions are on their way to get worse if they don’t respond properly to this and to the whole situation in East Ukraine.  The Russians have got a lot to lose in this whole saga over Ukraine, their economy is not strong, it’s poorly constructed, it’s dependent on the oil price and it cannot afford to lose international respect or international trade.  At the same time the Russians in the Security Council are the first people to say territorial integrity must be respected, the West must not tread on other people’s sovereign territory and look at what they are doing in Ukraine and have done since the beginning of this crisis.  So the Russians have a lot to lose in this and just to sit there and say it was the Ukrainians, Kiev was responsible for this, this has all stemmed from the West sanctions, is completely implausible and non-credible and their reputation will suffer, their trade will suffer, their economy will suffer.  They need to change this.

DM: But what can we read into that?  As you say, it’s a ludicrous response, these conspiracy theories that seem to be being pedalled by parts of the Russian media, presumably have been sanctioned by Putin and his assistants, what do you think the genuine reaction in the Kremlin is to this?  Will they be in part horrified that this has been allowed to happen?

SIR JEREMY GREENSTOCK: Well I think President Putin is clearly very angry, he expresses his anger at the West and that is probably truly felt.  He is also going to be angry with the people on the ground who are pro-Russian or actually Russian who have made this mistake which he probably realises is what’s happened and together with the condemnation and the pressure and the economic pressure we can put  on, there has to be communication.  Nowadays we have to communicate over how to get out of this spiralling circle of disrespect and contempt, each side for the other, which is getting worse and worse and which is making the situation on the ground in Ukraine untenable at the moment so a let out channel for Putin has to be constructed and I hope that President Obama and European leaders are constructing that, it sounds as though they are and then Vladimir Putin has to take it, his reputation is at stake, he must find a way out of this worsening situation for the Russian Federation.

DM: Sir Jeremy, thank you very much indeed for your time.  Sir Jeremy Greenstock there.