Murnaghan 2.06.13 Interview with Lord Mackenzie, Labour peer

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, three peers have denied improper conduct after the Sunday Times implicated them in a lobbying scandal. The newspaper released undercover footage which appeared to show Lord Laird, Lord Cunningham and Lord Mackenzie offering to ask questions in return for money and this morning Lord Laird resigned from the Ulster Unionist party. The Labour peer and former Chief Superintendent of Durham Police joins me now from Durham, a very good morning to you Lord Mackenzie. Do you feel that you’ve done anything wrong?

LORD MACKENZIE: Good morning Dermot. I am convinced I haven’t done anything wrong. I understand he rules, it’s quite clear that what you’re not allowed to do in the House of Lords or in Parliament itself, it applies to the Commons as well, is work for a lobbying company lobbying ministers to change legislation, putting down amendments for cash, asking questions for cash, that is clearly prohibited. What you are allowed to do obviously is have an outside employment where you earn some remuneration and of course that doesn’t prohibit you from speaking on those topics, in fact you could become an expert on them, provided of course that it’s registered and you declare an interest and that’s the dividing line and I understand that. What I was doing was being interviewed, so I thought, for a job with a company that produced solar glazing, a very innovative product, and they were looking for a consultant to advise then on marketing and so on. What I wasn’t doing was being interviewed as a lobbyist, that’s clearly illegal.

DM: So just to clear up this particular aspect of it, if the offer had been genuine you would have done it but of course declared the monies received?

LORD MACKENZIE: Well, if I had have accepted it I certainly would have had to declare them. In the event I went back to my office after the interview, asked them to send some written information and I decided not to do it because when I checked the codes of conduct in the House of Lords I thought it was getting near to the boundary, because of the discussions that we’d had, so I decided not to accept the appointment but had I, yes, I would have registered the interest in accordance with the rules of the House of course. If I spoke on the topic of solar panelling, solar energy, then I would have to declare that interest.

DM: There is also the issue of getting others to raise issues for you and therefore being able to get round the rules, holding parties, getting your colleagues to hold parties, things like that.

LORD MACKENZIE: Well the rules are fairly clear on holding functions, what you are not allowed to do, if you have a financial interest you are not allowed to host a function in the Lords. The function hasn’t got to be a money making exercise, it could be either a charity or a training exercise, in my case it was again to do with energy, serving in universities and Ministers spoke at the event. Because I had a financial interest in the company that was organising it, I asked a colleague to host the thing and there is nothing to stop anybody asking a member of the House of Lords to host a function, a charity would do this, provided of course he doesn’t have a financial interest and he is not earning money from it. The rules are quite complex and it may well be that there is a need to change them but it is quite clear that I obeyed the rules.

DM: But just why did you ask your colleague to do that? It looks like you are trying to get round the rules.

LORD MACKENZIE: Because I couldn’t do it, clearly. I had a financial interest, if we wanted to hold the function in the House of Lords, which we did, then the only way was to get a peer that didn’t have a financial interest to host the function and that of course is why perhaps the rules need looking at to change, if people aren’t happy with that but the rules are quite clear, you can’t host it if you have a financial interest, you can if you haven’t.

DM: You seem to be saying now you don’t think it is a particularly good idea but you were prepared to do it because the rules existed, what about the issue of morality in all of this, if you just feel it is not a good thing to do? It doesn’t matter about the rules does it, you are a parliamentarian?

LORD MACKENZIE: Not a good thing to do what?

DM: Not a good thing to do to get somebody else to host a party for you and you have got a financial interest.

LORD MACKENZIE: Well that’s what the rules say, it’s as simple as that. The only way that you could hold the function would be to have an independent peer that wasn’t involved in the organisation of the thing to host it. Morally it may well look as though it was not right but to hold the function it was the only way you could do it.

DM: But my question is about the spirit of the rules. Those are the rules that exist, they may be changed but what about personally, did you feel that was fine or was it just because you were within the rules?

LORD MACKENZIE: Well I thought it was all right because it was a non profit making function, it was to do with conserving energy so I thought it was important, I have an interest in the energy field, there was a Minister speaking so it was important that the function went ahead and that was the only way we could do it. It was within the rules, yes.

DM: How much further are you going to take this then, do you feel you’ve been hard done by, by these journalists?

LORD MACKENZIE: Obviously I can’t speak for anybody else but what I’ve done is referred it to the Lords Commissioner who looks at the standards in the House of Lords and he will independently have a look at what the rules are and what I’ve done and I’m quite convinced I shall be vindicated. It is a very complex area but I made sure I knew the rules before I went into any of this and it is an important thing to do obviously because what we don’t want is parliamentarians breaking the rules but there may well be a case for changing them, Dermot.

DM: Okay, Lord Mackenzie, thank you very much indeed for your time, Lord Mackenzie there.