ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, before Radek Sikorski was the Foreign Minister of Poland, he studied at Oxford University with David Cameron and Boris Johnson amongst others.  He was even in the infamous Bullingdon Club with them both but now at a crucial time for David Cameron, with his reputation in Europe on the line, Mr Sikorski is opposing his old university chum.  He says Jean-Claude Juncker should be President of the European Commission.  In his words, ‘that’s democracy’.  Well I spoke to him last week but I started by asking him about the situation in Ukraine and whether he thought sanctions against Russia were having any effect. 

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: The non-recognition of the annexation of Crimea has painful practical consequences for the Russian Federation.  We hope that it will make Russian leadership realise that Russia is in fact much more interdependent with the West than the Soviet Union ever was but I’m afraid heavy weaponry and the mercenaries are still getting across the border and that is not acceptable. 

DM: Do you see threats to other parts of Eastern Europe, the Baltic States? 

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: The Baltic States say they feel threatened and I think after what happened in Georgia and now in Ukraine we can’t ignore it and we should make our security guarantees to them credible, doable. 

DM: Expand on that, credible, doable?  Put more troops in, have manoeuvres? 

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Air force exercises and land force exercises, indeed the navy as well, that’s happening but NATO territory has to be made sacrosanct. 

DM: Do you think though, just to link these two crises together, the ISIS crisis in Iraq and in Syria, given that the West is now saying we need Russia here, we need to join together to deal with these militants and that in a way the focus on Ukraine is lessened and people are saying maybe we ought to take our foot off the gas a bit when it comes to the Russians?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: That’s always so.  When Britain and France did Suez, Russia did Hungary and that is a danger, that if we focus exclusively on the Middle East things will spin out of control in Eastern Europe.  I’m afraid we don’t have an option, we have to pay attention to both and I hope Russia is helpful the way she is over Iran and not the way she is over Syria. 

DM: Tell me then when we’re talking about Europe coming together or perhaps moving further apart, Jean-Claude Juncker, would he make a good President, what does Poland think of Jean-Claude Juncker?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Yes, we support him because we are part of the ruling party in the European Parliament, the European People’s Party, deputy leader of Poland’s ruling party, the Civic Platform, and in Dublin a couple of months ago we agreed that this time it will be more democratic, not just national leaders meeting in a room overnight and coming out with a solution, this time we are going to nominate a candidate ahead of the election and the candidates of the socialists, the liberals and the centre right were plastered all over Europe so people, those who bothered to take an interest, knew that if they vote for us Mr Juncker would be the candidate and we won, we got the largest number of votes so we as the European People’s Party are having the first shot at putting together a team that will create a coalition.  The winning party’s top candidate is the candidate for the top job, that’s democracy.

DM: Why do you think then that Britain didn’t seem to get it?  Mr Cameron opposed him so vociferously, indeed as did the whole political establishment.   

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Well actually if the socialists had won then Labour party voters would have got their way, it’s just that you don’t have a party in the UK that is represented in EPP but that was a British decision. 

DM: Do you think tactically that was a mistake for Mr Cameron to do this, when we talk about the commissioners jobs being handed out? 

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Well we will welcome the British Conservative Party in the EPP group and I think there is still every room for influencing Mr Juncker’s programme and Mr Juncker’s team including the position of the British Commissioner. 

DM: Is he an arch-federalist then?   

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Well that may be welcome to some and not welcome to others. 

DM: That means you think he is. 

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: He believes that there are things that we can do at the union level which benefit us all, for example on trade.  We are now negotiating with the United States just as before we were negotiating with China or Brazil.  No single European country including Britain, can get as good a deal in those negotiations as we can as the largest economy on earth.  It makes sense.    

DM: Just your view on the European Union for a country, you unequivocally think it’s a good thing. 

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: We do because if you have a single market, which was a British idea, you need rules and institutions to make sure that rules are obeyed and that means delegating some power to the union institutions, we have no problem with that.  And of course it means that on some issues you win, on others you lose but you have to rub along. 

DM: Your country and others play a large part in the debate within the UK on the European Union.  Since your country joined the European Union, and others, in 2004 and others subsequently has joined, the debate in the UK – do you think it sometimes it has taken on almost a racist tone?  You hear people, you must hear people in the UK and newspapers, commentators saying well those Poles and others, they come over here to get our benefits, they take the low paid jobs, they want free treatment on the NHS, they send benefits back to their children, what do you think about that?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: The benefit stories is a figment of some politicians imaginations, it’s just not true.  Look at your own parliamentary and academic reports, the immigrants overwhelmingly contribute more than they take out and you have just changed your rules on social security whereby you can’t get benefits from day one and quite right too, we have those rules since a long time ago so you are making actually a system more continental and we don’t protest as long as you do it in a non-discriminatory way.  Look, I was an immigrant in Britain, I went back …

DM: You were a British citizen weren’t you?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Yes, I was and our people also come back because we are beginning to develop shortages of labour in some sectors.  They are learning English here, they are learning skills, gaining capital of all kinds but we hope to, and we are actually spending money on encouraging them to come back and then they will contribute to the greater friendship between Poland and Britain.

DM: Is there some shock in Poland at some of the extreme levels of the debate, given the proud nature of Polish civilisation, the co-operation between our two great nations during the Second World War, the number of Poles that served in the British forces for instance, that now it has taken this turn?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: There is an unpleasant fringe in every country.  We don’t generalise, I maintain my gratitude to the British people for giving me asylum when I needed it from communism and I am sure most of the Poles who live here and work here and contribute to Britain, well they voted with their feet and I hope when they return they will keep fond memories of Britain.

DM: Okay, very diplomatically put there.  Have you got any thoughts, talking about referendums in this country, about the Scottish referendum?  Do you think the United Kingdom would be diminished if Scotland were to leave?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: It’s not for me to comment and incidentally I am told that both the yes and no campaign have printed leaflets in Polish because my Embassy tells me that all residents of Scotland can vote which means Poles in Scotland can vote, Scots in England can’t!

DM: It is so strange, the way these things are forming but let me phrase it another way, do you think an independent Scotland should it go that way, would find it easy to get back in the European Union or would it still just remain a member very naturally?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Look, the is difficult because just as we think … I think if Britain finds a happier modus vivendi with the European Union, so it is more likely to preserve its own union and let’s hope for positive outcomes.

DM: Last question, you are going to meet Boris Johnson for a drink, you’re in London, it’s Friday night?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Not this time but it’s been known to happen.

DM: You sank a few in the past didn’t you at university together?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: We’re good friends.  

DM: When you were at university within him did you see this leadership potential?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Oh absolutely, he was president of the union, very, very popular and it wasn’t easy for him to become that and he won and he also married the prettiest girl.

DM: Would he make a good Prime Minister?

RADISLAW SIKORSKI: Look, I know both Boris and David and they are both great men.

DM: Well thank you very much, very good to see you Minister.  The Polish Foreign Minister there talking to me last week.