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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now despite politicians and indeed football players calling for calm, hundreds of thousands of people have again taken to the streets in many cities across Brazil. The cost of hosting next year’s World Cup is a growing theme of the mass protests which began over bus fares and joining me in the studio is the Brazilian Ambassador to the UK, His Excellency Roberto Jaguaribe, a very good morning to you Mr Ambassador. Tell us what is your take, what is the Brazilian government saying about why these protests are being so prolonged and so widespread.

ROBERTO JAGUARIBE: Well it is not a simple issue, it is a diffused message, it is a novel form of political participation where the social media has taken a very important role but at the same time we are interested in listening to the message. The President yesterday has a public statement on the issue, she was very clear about the interest the government has in listening to what they have to say, trying to engage the leadership. Of course the problem is, what leadership? It is very diffuse again so it is not a simple question but there are things that have been in progress for a long time. Some things are specific measures, the bus tickets, others are general aspirations. Aspirations are something you have to perform over a longer time frame but I think engaging and trying to understand is very fundamental. Obviously our assessment is also that these people do not believe they are fully represented.

DM: Well that’s the point I wanted to ask you. Okay, you want to listen, you want to understand, you want to discuss with them, you also want to hit elements of them with tear gas, water cannon and rubber bullets. Is the response in some places a bit heavy handed?

RJ: It is always a delicate balance because you see when you have many, many people in the streets, at one stage there were a million people on the streets, yesterday was much less than that, you have to make sure that they are protected and that the people who are interested in creating commotions are controlled and sometimes the delicate balance between letting them do as they want because it is a peaceful demonstration and …

DM: But clearly what those pictures tell us is that the authorities believe there are some troublemakers in there. What proportion of them do you believe are …?

RJ: There are no doubt there are troublemakers but you could choose different images of course. You have one million people in the streets and these are a very focused image. I don't know the proportion, certainly there are troublemakers and there is a dynamic within the group as well which moves people to do different things.

DM: But what it tells us about modern Brazil is, and we’ve been talking for a long time in this country and in the European Union about the remarkable economic progress that Brazil has been making but that progress has come at a price, hasn’t it? It has left many, many millions behind, there are huge disparities in wealth there.

RJ: Well I think the real achievement of Brazil is not economic growth, the real achievement in Brazil over the past twenty years has been social inclusion. Brazil and Latin America in general is the only region of the world where the growth is accompanied by diminished disparities in income and this has been the case in Brazil very clearly so we have 40 or 50 million new people into the middle class, we are going to do away with complete misery or complete poverty and we have incorporated just as an example, 60 million new bank accounts in the last ten years, with a demographic that has had a population growth that is not very significant. What does that mean? These people coming into the middle class, being able to participate, that has really been the focal point of government policies.

DM: But not these people, not the people who have been out on the streets, we are talking hundreds of thousands of people, who have not ….

RJ: A million people.

DM: I thought you might want to downplay it, you’re not, but they don’t feel socially included. What’s gone wrong there then?

RJ: Well I’m not so sure they don’t feel socially included, I don’t think they feel politically represented which is something a little different. In fact if you look at these people and the statistics have shown 80% of them are university graduates which does not comply with the Brazilian population. It is a different sort of people, young people, more well informed, different, with more means so it is not the basic needy Brazilian who is in the streets. Of course they also participate.

DM: But the problem is, as you are saying there, about dealing with the disparate demands, if there are demands there and dissatisfactions of these people, it may have started with bus fares and transport issues, even if you don’t put them up that much these people have moved on haven’t they? There is a more general feeling that there is corruption in government, that the political leaders are out of touch with us.

RJ: I think this is the point, this is a political issue essentially and to really a social issue, although social services and the deficiencies in social service have been pointed out as well and there is clearly a need to improve on those points but Brazil is a developing country facing many developmental challenges, security, infrastructure, social development, education, health, all of them are challenges in a developing society.

DM: And a symbol of that is the amount of money the Brazilian government has spent on its shiny new stadiums for the World Cup next year. If this goes on do you think you will be able to host the World Cup?

RJ: Well I have no doubt about that whatsoever. In the middle of one million people in the streets, the stadiums are filled and the Confederations Cup is going on very well. In relation to the World Cup there are two things that must be said. First of all, Brazil is a football nation and when Brazil was preparing to host the World Cup there was a general jubilation in relation to that as there was in relation to the Olympic Games. The second thing is that the government is financing the stadia but it is not paying for the stadia, the stadia are being financed by government paid by local authorities and by private enterprises, so the federal government is not paying for the stadia.

DM: But with respect, the Confederation Cup is nothing compared to the World Cup, the eyes of the world will be on it and if you do not deal with these dissatisfactions you could have millions of people on the streets marching on a Spain versus Brazil game or something like that, with the eyes of the world upon it. FIFA must be worried that if this goes on, Brazil’s ability to host the World Cup could be compromised.

RJ: Well that would be a shock for us and we would not take it well. We think we are doing very well as it is, we are a democratic country, people have the rights to go to the streets and if they want to go to the streets they are going to continue to go to the streets. We have to stop the violence and the looting associated with some of the let’s say individuals who participate in these manifestations but otherwise we are not going to stop people from having manifestations, that is clearly not going to happen.

DM: But as I say, you hear from the crowds, you hear people saying this government, this country is spending billions on these stadiums and nothing on health, nothing on education. You have to demonstrate visibly to these people, do you not, that the priorities are different?

RJ: As I said, Brazilian culture is transparent. Anybody can go to the internet and say exactly what the expenditures are in every issue and we have enormous expenditure in education, gigantic expenditure in health but there are new demands, legitimate new demands which have to be met. Again, as I said, Brazil is a developing country and has many challenges.

DM: Ambassador, thank you very much indeed for your time, very good to see you. His Excellency Roberto Jaguaribe there.