ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well let’s look through the Sunday papers now and doing that for me are the former Security Minister, Baroness Neville-Jones, the Chief Executive of Turning Point, Lord Adebowale and Conservative MP, Cheryl Gillan, a very good morning to you all. To kick us off Pauline, hard on the heels of that news that Edward Snowden may be on his way to Russia, you’ve picked the front page lead in the Observer.

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: I am sure a lot of people would feel that you’d admire him more if this whistle blower actually faced the music, what he’s doing is escaping. He doesn’t actually want to …

DM: But if he faces the music he could go to jail for a very long time.

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: He knew perfectly well what the purse would be and he is now seeking to defect I think, spill the beans as he sees them and then escape the consequences.

DM: You don’t feel that he performed any kind of public service?

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: There are a lot of stories about whistle blowers in the papers and whistle blowers are in a sense regarded as people who perform a public good but they do do it on the spot and they often suffer the consequences. This chap I think … that’s my only point there. This is obviously quite a big story and I personally think that the debate that we need to have, which we haven’t really had, is where the line lies between our collective security and individual liberty and that we do need. We need to have it in much more depth than we’ve had so far and I think the legislation is out of date. The government had one bash at bringing forward a Bill which wasn’t a very good one, the issue being there that the safeguards that you need actually to give people confidence that they are not being spied on for ridiculous reasons, indeed not being spied on but there is a legitimate role, a role for security people, which is under control, accountable and which is doing the job as intended, not more, that’s what we need.

DM: Let’s just bring in your story, Victor, you picked this one out of the Independent, new laws needed.

LORD ADEBOWALE: We’ve got more of a digital age haven’t we and there are three things really, there’s one that we presume that democracy is always going to be exactly the same. Well history tells us it might change and these powers may fall into people, in terms of people that we don’t particularly want. I think we need to debate about whether we want this level of scrutiny of our private lives which is sort of deep data mining, isn’t it? What they are doing is collecting a load of stuff and having a look.

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: The issue is what they do with it.

LORD ADEBOWALE: That is the question but the fact that they are doing it in the first place ought to be subject of a wider debate, and as you say, how far is too far? As for Edward Snowden and if he is going to pay the price for it, he’s going to be on the run for the rest of his life isn’t he? Let’s face it, he is never going to settle.

DM: And just on that, the Interfax News Agency is saying there is a ticket in his name for Moscow to Cuba, so it’ll be interesting tracking him around. What’s your take on this Cheryl?

CHERYL GILLAN: I think we must have that debate but if you actually talk to people, they are quite comforted that we have security services in this day and age taking care of our welfare and interests and I think the man in the street is far less suspicious than the cognoscenti if you like. I think everybody is saying there may be something sinister about this but people want to feel secure.

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: Terrorism is a real threat to us and a lot goes on that we never know about because it’s nipped before it ever gets to the public. Why is that and how is that, it is essentially through communication. That is how you actually do get …

DM: So it’s a price we have to pay?

LORD ADEBOWALE: It might be the price that we have to pay, the point is that we should know that we’re paying it. To be honest with you, I put my welfare and that of my family in the hands of an elected government and not the secret service so I guess at the end of the day we have a situation where these institutions have oversight by a democratically elected government and we should know what is going on there.

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: And it needs to be more open than it is at the moment.

DM: It is scary, reading in that article in the Independent, what does it say Victor, that GCHQ and its new project will be able to mine the data which is 192 times the entire British Library’s collection, in one day?

LORD ADEBOWALE: It’s incredible and what it is, this big data issue which is being used now by all kinds of organisations to collect large amounts of data, not to look at individual amounts but to look at trends, spikes, approaches. Now that might be perfectly okay, I don’t know, but the point is it looks as though we haven’t really had the debate, the laws don’t cover it and I’d feel more … the man in the street, as you say, may well be happy but it doesn’t make it right.

DM: It’s this issue of the big net being cast.

CHERYL GILLAN: I think that’s right and I think we are probably all in agreement that this needs to be debated and we need to make sure we are in the right place but I also want to make sure that those elected representatives that you put your faith in so much aren’t operating with a set of services that have one hand tied behind their back and we have got to be very careful where we let that judgement fall.

DM: Okay, I need to get more stories in. Cheryl, HS2, I know a subject that is dear to your heart, the Prime Minister has been reminded every time he goes to his country retreat about it.

CHERYL GILLAN: That’s right, this is the story in the Telegraph of revels at the gates of Chequers but in fact it is absolutely right. I started off being opposed to HS2 because it went through the Chilterns which is an area of outstanding natural beauty but unfortunately as I studied this and I’ve looked at things like the NAO report and what is purported to be in the Major Projects Authority report and now I’m against the project as a whole, I don’t think it’s good value for money, I don't think it’s in the right place at the right time and the New Economic Foundation did a fantastic report last week looking at alternative ways of spending this money which would actually benefit more people more widely and more quickly and actually contribute better to the economy and I just wish my colleagues would listen. We’re not rebels, we’re actually usually quite good loyal Conservative supporters but we have seen that this is not the project for this country at this time and I really do hope that my colleagues will listen and re-evaluate this.

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: I’m afraid I’m on the other side of this debate. I come from the north and I want to see it happen.

CHERYL GILLAN: Let’s start with the north because a lot of the NES report that Victor used to be a Director of …

LORD ADEBOWALE: I did, an excellent organisation!

CHERYL GILLAN: … is looking at how we benefit the north and part of this is the connectivity in the north and I would agree with you entirely that we need to improve that connectivity.

LORD ADEBOWALE: It is one of those problems isn’t it, the problem with the HS2 debate is that it needs to widen the debate beyond those people who appear to be the ones who are going to be affected by it. I know that you say it should be started in the north – well why?

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: Well linking across the Pennines would be good.

LORD ADEBOWALE: My point is that yes, I think it’s a good idea to have it, the argument seems to be let’s have it as long as it doesn’t go through my field, my house, my …

CHERYL GILLAN: I started there, I started there Victor, but I promise you I am now no longer in that narrow vein.

DM: And we’ve got a lovely link to the next story, a very easy one for me Pauline, because you’re talking about Paris and we have got a high speed rail line going there.

BARONESS NEVILLE-JONES: We have got a high speed rail line and this is a story which is in the Observer about the way in which Paris is going around to attract Chinese tourists. There are two parts to it, the shopkeepers in Paris are making a real offensive for Chinese visitors but there is a point in this story which does concern me which is it’s easier and cheaper to get a Schengen visa and then of course you have the whole of the Schengen area, lots of European countries you can go to and it is, I’m told, they get the visa faster. We have got to find a way of actually reducing the time it takes and the cost to people of actually coming to this country because we are going to lose both tourism and students. There is a real economic price here.

DM: We’re running out of time and we need some more stories so Victor, your next one, speaking out. This is about whistle blowers and the issue I have been discussing in the first half hour of this programme.

LORD ADEBOWALE: The CQC, we’re back on that one again and the idea that people who have spoken out are being punished. I think we’ve had the Francis Report which has looked at this whole issue of the NHS and where it’s going in terms of care, at the end of the day what these whistle blowers are telling us is that we need a much stronger patient voice. At the end of the day it is the consumers of health and social care that we need to hear from more and the CQC, to be honest, isn’t an insurance against poor care, it is assurance. What is insurance against poor care is that the people, the patients need to be involved in the NHS, it can’t be something that you hand over to other people.

DM: Where do you think this culture, I mean having worked in a variety of organisations, some of the quangos or whatever, where does this culture come from where the CQC seems to have to got it, that actually some of the stuff we’re uncovering here is too sensitive for the patients to know about?

LORD ADEBOWALE: I think it’s interesting, isn’t it? I think there’s nothing that is too sensitive for patients to know about because they know about it before we do because they are the ones experiencing it so I don't think that’s the case. I think there’s a number of things actually, I think it’s interesting that virtually all our institutions are starting to have cracks appearing in them – the police, the NHS – I think these cracks are good because they let the light in. I think what we ought to be doing is really looking at the political culture and the executive culture and leadership that has allowed this happen. It is not just about individuals.

DM: Cheryl, was this about political culture do you feel that led the CQC to start acting like this, almost from its very inception?

CHERYL GILLAN: I almost can’t countenance someone trying to conceal the type of information that was coming in but unfortunately I am quite willing to believe it in this day and age. I have also been in to hospitals myself to visit relations and others and I’ve seen things that I have really not approved of and I really feel that we need that light and light is the best disinfectant.

LORD ADEBOWALE: Let’s be clear, the NHS treats a million people a year, my mother was a nurse for well over 35 years. Most people get an excellent service from the NHS and I have to say I’m a bit worried that we are bashing the NHS, not these stories that are right to come out but the NHS generally provides an excellent, excellent service that many people benefit from.

DM: And on that note I just want to hear from you Cheryl just to highlight this incredibly important issue.

CHERYL GILLAN: There is a lot of talk about domestic violence and child abuse, particularly with the Forest case but there is an inspiring piece in the Independent on Sunday which is talking about a new lifeline on female genital mutilation. The NSPCC is opening a 24 hour telephone service tomorrow and I think that’s first class, it is something that really needs eradicating, it should happen to no woman in any country anywhere and certainly not in this country.

DM: I think we can end on a resounding endorsement of that. Thank you all very much indeed, very good to see you, Pauline, Victor, Cheryl, thank you.