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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now who wants to be a millionaire? Well it’s a popular refrain but it’s becoming more taboo in places. The Labour party of course wants to tax them more or certainly not see their taxes cut but all the while cosying up to small businesses, so what happens when a small business owner becomes a millionaire? I’m joined now by the Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna, very good to see you.

CHUKA UMUNNA: Hi Dermot, good morning.

DM: Let me put that to you straight away because a lot of what we hear especially around the budget and we hear it all the time from Mr Miliband is tax cuts for millionaires, he almost spits the word out yet you’re coming in here today I know to champion small businesses who naturally want to become bigger businesses and perhaps reward the people who founded the businesses and worked very hard by perhaps earning seven figures or more. What’s wrong with that?

CU: Well I hope that lots of our small businesses and entrepreneurs in this country do become millionaires. I think the problem is that many of them feel there are too many obstacles and hurdles put in the way of their businesses actually thriving but many small businesses don’t fall into the millionaire category but the point is, the second thing really is at a time when the public’s finances are under pressure and we need to get our economy going again, who is it that currently needs help and should be prioritised? Do we prioritise those earning millions of pounds and the government is just about to very shortly give them £100,000 tax cut or do we help the lower and middle income families in particular who are really struggling under the burden of rising prices but wages which aren’t really going anywhere? We know since this government started that on average your viewers have sustained a £1,200 tax … sorry a £1,200 pay cut, so it is no way shape or form an attack on people who are earning lots of money, I’m pleased to see people earning lots of money so long as they pay their fair share in tax but I do think that at a time when people are really facing the squeeze, is it right that we are actually giving tax cuts to people who are actually doing very well.

DM: But is it just rhetoric? What is a millionaire, define a millionaire for me.

CU: Well the way in which I would define it is somebody earning millions of pounds.

DM: So that’s the classic definition of a millionaire as you would know.

CU: Yes, that’s right. I generally talk about people earning millions of pounds which is the definition I’ve just used.

DM: So it is a very different definition … you don’t hate millionaires, people who own their own houses in London and elsewhere could well be millionaires?

CU: No, not at all, not at all. Look, we want everybody to thrive, we want everybody to do well, I have no problem with people earning lots of money because they produce growth and jobs for our country. What we’re saying is that at a time when people are facing the biggest squeeze on their living standards in a generation, do you prioritise mid and lower income families who let’s face it are the overwhelming majority of families in this country, or do you give massive tax cuts to those earning millions of pounds? Actually the thing that people seem to ignore is I would say a lot of people who are earning millions of pounds, they would agree with us on that because they want to see growth in the country as a whole because say your small business owner that you cited, and not many of them as I said fall into the category of earning millions of pounds, they rely on lower and middle income families a) to provide the talent and the workers in their businesses but b) to provide the custom and frankly if lower and middle income households aren’t doing very well, they are unlikely to do that well either.

DM: As I said, you came in to talk about small businesses, what would you do for them which the government isn’t already doing within some very difficult financial constraints? We heard in the budget many things that would help small businesses, national insurance cuts, the business bank, that’s quite a nice one isn’t it, capital gains tax cuts?

CU: The problem with many of the measures that the government announced this week, take what Francis was just talking about, the employment allowance on national insurance, many of these measures aren’t due to come into effect for at least a year when small businesses and entrepreneurs are saying give me help now. In relation to the business bank, the problem with the government’s business bank, look it is ridiculous that we are the only G8 country without a state backed investment institution to support our small businesses but the problem, and here’s the difference between us and the government, the problem with their small business bank is that essentially it seeks to transmit its schemes and its help to businesses through the very people who have been the problem, that is the high street banks. That is why alongside our British investment bank, we would set up a regional banking, a local banking network like the Sparkasse in Germany which have their purpose to serve the local economy, to grow it, to help small businesses and represents a return to relationship banking. It is the regional local banks that we would use to transmit the schemes of our British investment bank to small business.

DM: I’ve heard exactly the same from Vince Cable himself, the Business Secretary.

CU: No, he is not committed to setting up a regional banking network. The second thing is that actually we might not be in power nationally but locally we need to be doing more through our local authorities to use the peer to peer lending platforms like Funding Circle to get money to small businesses. So Camden Council announced on Thursday it is going to be making monies available to its small businesses through the Funding Circle model and we’re looking to get up to ten Labour run local authorities doing the same thing. The other big thing for businesses is of course infrastructure. You would not believe, Dermot, how long it takes to set up a broadband connection if you are a small business – up to a month. It’s outrageous that we are making our businesses wait up to a month to establish a broadband connection so that’s why if we got in to government we would instruct Ofcom to look at the possibility of actually requiring broadband connections to bet set up with a week and if that’s possible then we want to make that happen. Of course the other thing that they suffer from is the energy companies like everybody else, they are ripping off our small businesses as well at the moment.

DM: Okay, plenty to go on Mr Umunna, thank you very much indeed, Chuka Umunna there.