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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Here’s a headline I didn’t think I’d ever read – the Queen will meet former IRA commander Martin McGuinness in Belfast. Historic doesn’t quite cover it. I’m joined now by the former Northern Ireland First Minister, Lord Trimble, a very good morning to you Lord Trimble. Give us your sense first of all of the ‘well I never’ about this meeting.

DAVID TRIMBLE: I wouldn’t put it actually in those terms. This is part of the logical situation that this would have happened, the timing is not a surprise. The Republicans misjudged the popular reaction to the Queen in the Republic of Ireland during the state visit and I’m sure they wouldn’t want to be seen by their electorate as misjudging the reaction to this visit coming up next week so I’m not surprised that it’s happening. I am a little bit surprised at the fuss they are making about it as if it was a huge deal, a big deal. They have known, I’m sure they have known for ages that this is inevitable and there are still further steps to be taken.

DM: Ah I want to examine those but first of all I was going to ask you about the significance of this for Northern Ireland, for Ireland, of course for Sinn Fein, you think it is really just a natural progression?

DT: It is precisely that, it is precisely that. It is the visit that the Queen made to the Irish Republic was a huge success. I knew it would go well, it went even better than I thought. I’m sure the visit to Northern Ireland, which is in a completely different context but I’m sure that that will be also successful. Of course people will focus on this but you are quite right to use the phrase natural progression. Once Sinn Fein accepted office and accepted to be Ministers operating within the United Kingdom under the laws and structures that had been established by the United Kingdom government then something like this was inevitably going to happen.

DM: You mentioned there, Lord Trimble, further steps that Sinn Fein has to take. It seems that looking back ten or even twenty years since the peace process started, they have made enormous leaps and bounds. What is the unfinished business?

DT: Well you see, the big thing was the fact that the Republican movement decided to give up violence, that was the huge event and then there are things that have flowed from that. All of them could be described as normalisation, we are getting back to normality, we’re getting back to normality where people are elected and they are elected by virtue of people voting for them and they are in office for the same reason, people doing that will inevitably find themselves on formal occasions meeting the monarch, that’s bound to happen. The other thing that’s bound to happen is that people who are elected might take their seats and that will be a step, an achievement but the last really big thing will be when the Republican movement turn round to dissident Republicans and say to them not that what you’re doing isn’t going to work but say to them that we have come to the conclusion, that we came to the conclusion that what we were doing was wrong and what you’re doing is wrong and should be stopped. You see at the moment they are not using that language and I think that when Martin McGuinness uses that language to Republicans, then we will thankfully finally see this process come.

DM: That is a very important point, Lord Trimble do stay with us because I am going to say a very good morning to the President of Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams, who joins us now down the line, as we say in television parlance, a very good morning to you Mr Adams. Let me start with that point put by the former First Minister, that in reality this isn’t such a big step, it is a natural progression and Sinn Fein missed a trick when the Queen made her visit to the Republic of Ireland in not meeting her.

GERRY ADAMS: Good morning, Dermot and good morning, David. Of course David lacks the necessary generosity, he knows this is a big step and he knows we didn’t misjudge the situation when the Queen of England visited Dublin last year because since then, as he may know, our opinion poll ratings have almost doubled so we didn’t miss the beat. That was a different type of a visit, it took a hundred years for that to be organised almost and that was part of the rationalisation of that state and the English monarchy. This is a different visit, where a united Ireland – as David knows, I’ve talked about him on that issue many times, we’re Irish Republicans, we’re against a monarchy of any kind, elites, hierarchies of any kind but we do respect our Unionist neighbours and their view and their sense of identity on these issues and that’s why we took this decision. The reason why it is a big step is because many people, including some of my family members, suffered dreadfully, one was killed at the hands of British crown forces, many of my neighbours suffered the same fate so there is no sense of the insignificance of this in Belfast. I also want to say, in terms of what the Queen said when she was in Dublin and I welcomed that at the time, when she talked about all victims, when she made very significant statements and when she paid respect to the men and women of 1916 and those who died in pursuit of Irish freedom. So David could learn a lot from his monarch.

DM: Okay, do you want to come back on that, Lord Trimble?

DT: Well just to say, I hear Gerry saying that he respects his Unionist neighbours and he talks about how people have suffered. He needs to put in the context, the Republican movement killed most of the victims of violence, there were other victims too and they have been acknowledged, the innocent ones have been acknowledged particularly and you will remember how David Cameron did that very effectively when the Bloody Sunday report came out. Gerry shouldn’t focus so much just on what has happened to Republicans, he should bear in mind what happened to the community as a whole.

DM: I just want to add to that, Lord Trimble, and Gerry Adams of course you mentioned members of your family suffering in the Troubles, members of the Queen’s family of course suffered, her cousin was assassinated by the IRA and when that happened you of course said that the IRA had achieved its objective. Do you think it would be appropriate for Mr McGuinness to offer an apology for that?

GA: Well whatever happens between Martin and Queen Elizabeth, we’ll see what develops out of all of that but look, let’s not be raking over the coals. David came in here on an entirely negative, you know, downplaying this, talking about the insignificance, saying Republicans had to do more and had to do more and had to do more. This is a big day … sorry, excuse me, David, this is a big day and it is a very, very significant day and David knows that and he should welcome it and he should welcome it without any reservation whatsoever. I acknowledge that the Queen’s family have suffered, of course I do and I am totally against any hierarchy of victims and I am very touched by the way, by the way that the families of IRA patriot dead have very largely responded and we’ve been talking to some of those over the last few days, very largely responded and are very understanding in a positive way to this so all of us need to ensure – and David did have a significant role in this – to ensure that as we move into different phases of this process of change, that we are behind it, that we are positive, that we’re hopeful and also on a small island like this, less than six million people, a very, very small land mass, we need to live together, we need to live together and we can and we Irish Republicans do without any British involvement in our affairs.

DM: Lord Trimble wants to respond to that but just let me ask you this, when you refer to termed the IR patriot dead and their families, you consulted widely I know within Sinn Fein about this meeting and not all, as you admit, of your membership agreed. Do you think this therefore enhances the likelihood that some of them may begin to splinter away, as others have done during the course of the peace process, to smaller and violent Republican groupings?

GA: No, not at all. I respect absolutely the opposition to us being involved in this engagement, to Martin McGuinness being involved in this engagement, that’s entirely right. We are a party which is democratic and which tries to bring about a very healthy climate where members can assent or dissent or remain neutral on issues, so throughout the party and throughout the Republic communities across this island, there are three views. There is the trenchant opposition to this, there is trenchant support for this and in between, as is probably usual, a lot of people just hoping it all goes well and positive about what I would like to think will be another step in this on-going process of change and equality coming down the road at us.

DM: Ah, so on that you agree with Lord Trimble that there are more steps to take, one of which he makes and others have made is what about Sinn Fein MPs finally getting over it and taking their seats in the House of Commons? 25 years ago you would have had an issue about sitting in Dial Eireann.

GA: A complete distraction. Our parliament is on the island of Ireland, when I increasingly [inaudible] in the North and the Good Friday Agreement which David bravely signed up to is an all-Ireland arrangement, it’s an all-Ireland infrastructural constitutional arrangement. The Government of Ireland Act, David agreed to this, is gone. The people of the north are hardly as British as Finchley as Mrs Thatcher said, when the British government has agreed that when a majority want a united Ireland they will legislate for it. So all of this is good, all of this is positive and one can be sure of one thing, that on the day that this engagement takes place people will be pleased, except for those who are on the margins.

DM: Lord Trimble, just to come back to you, are you being unnecessarily negative here as Gerry Adams said? It is significant. It may be a natural progression but if we went back, as I mentioned, 20 years ago, we could never have imagined this taking place. The IRA wanted to assassinate the Queen, not shake her hand.

DT: No one said that this natural progression was insignificant and I welcome the fact that Gerry, who is being unnecessarily defensive on this, I welcome the fact that he acknowledges that there are future things still to be done. I think you’ll find that they’ll not be done just in quite the direction as his last remarks indicated.

DM: Okay, Gerry Adams, last word to you.

GA: Well it’s a good day, it’s a brave thing that’s being done by all of the people in this engagement and I look forward to the day when David and I live together in a united Ireland, happy and contented in each other’s company.

DM: And a chuckle there from Lord Trimble. Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, thank you very much indeed out there in Belfast and live with me in the studio, the former First Minister of Northern Ireland. Thank you both very much indeed.