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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Among all the talk of an EU referendum there are more and more British politicians who think that the UK should be more like Norway, that’s outside the EU but still able to benefit from access to its markets. But could that really work for Britain? My next guess is a former Prime Minister of Norway, he is also Secretary General of the Council of Europe and the head of the Nobel Prize Committee and they of course awarded the Peace Prize to the EU last year so perhaps you can already guess where he stands. He’s Thorbjorn Jagland and he joins me now from Strasberg, a very good morning to you Mr Jagland. Well I wanted to put that to you, you’ll be aware that many politicians, many people in the United Kingdom are saying look, our relationship with the European Union can be like that of Norway, it’s a model for us. What would your answer to those people in the UK who think that be?

TORBJORN JAGLAND: Well first of all I would like to say it is not up to me to give a recommendation but I would say that if the UK leaves the European Union and joins the arrangement that for instance Norway has, this EEA arrangement, then I believe UK will lose sovereignty because then you have thousands and thousands of directives coming from the EU which is important and decisive for the internal market so what the EEA agreement is, is that you are a part of the internal market provided you accept all the rules that are for this internal market. So I think it is a little bit strange that those who say the UK should leave the EU because the UK has lost sovereignty, the same people say that one should join the EEA agreement which actually means that one loses much more sovereignty.

DM: Because I suppose that we in the UK characterise Norway, all of Norway, as being very happy with the current arrangement, there are people like you there who say well look, we’d rather be more like the UK and have a full seat at the table.

TJ: Well Norway lives very well with the EEA agreement and mainly because we have access to the internal market and the fact that we have all these oil revenues but many in Norway are dissatisfied with the fact that we don’t have any influence on all the rules that affects us so this is something which one has to consider. There are two alternatives, either you are a full member of the club and you have influence or you are not and you don’t have influence.

DM: So is it just your personal view, Mr Jagland, that the UK is better in it than outside it?

TJ: Well it’s not up to me to make an assessment, it is entirely up to the British people and of course the British parliament so one has to decide but one also has to bear the consequences on the decision that the people and the parliament is doing.

DM: I mean you clearly regard the European Union not just economically but I suppose on a global scale as a force for good, and I’m referring to the Nobel Committee awarding the EU, an entity, the Nobel Peace Prize. Why did you do that?

TJ: Well I think that most people who are aware of the history of Europe think that this was an important and very good decision. The European Union has been running a reconciliation process for more than nearly sixty years starting with steel and coal union and then when the Berlin Wall came down, all the Eastern European countries joined Europe and it went on peacefully because European institutions were there to receive them. Look at the difference to what is happening in the Arab world, they don’t have any save haven and now this reconciliation process is coming to the Balkans so this has been a real peace project and a reconciliation process for the entire Europe.

DM: But do you think it could be more of a force on the international stage, the EU, is it an area where you believe that more integration has to take place and pool the might of all the nations within the European Union? At the moment, and you mentioned North Africa, you mentioned the situation coming out of the Arab Spring, it’s the Americans individually, it’s the British, it’s the French, it’s individual countries who get involved from Europe, not the EU as a whole.

TJ: I think it would be good for the world if Europe could have more influence on the global politics because Europe is providing what they call soft power in many places and if one could deploy much more of this soft power, for instance now in the Arab world, in North Africa, it would be very good. There are clear limitations to what military forces can achieve, I have seen this again and again. It is so important that Europe is able to build institutions, to open up for the markets so that poverty can be reduced and unemployment can be reduced, so this is the best way I think to build democracy and also to build peace outside Europe, which happened actually in Europe itself.

DM: That is an argument, it’s back to the discussions about an EU referendum in this country, that is partially an argument which will not go down well in parts of the United Kingdom, it is the implicit loss of sovereignty that is involved.

TJ: Yes, I recognise that this is an important discussion, it is up to the British people to decide and to have a referendum is democratic but one also has to discuss the consequences of leaving the European Union for the UK. I believe that one loses sovereignty but also one has to discuss the consequences for Europe as a whole. It could be, I don’t know whether it will be but it can be a starting point for the renationalisation of politics because if Britain wants to have a new deal, others may want to have the same and this could be the starting point for a negative process for the whole of Europe.

DM: Let me finally ask you, Mr Jagland, about the European Court of Human Rights. It’s a body that so many people in the United Kingdom find irksome to say the least, coming up with sometimes, many people believe, perverse decisions crystallised in the form of the radical cleric, Abu Qatada, and Britain’s inability to see him extradited.

TJ: Well last year three thousand applications came from the UK to the Court and the Court found only ten violations of the Convention from the UK so I would say that the UK is the most credible and predictable member of the Council of Europe and its convention and this court and it would be a very negative thing if the UK would leave the convention and the court because again it could launch a negative process because many others would do the same and then it would harm human rights for ordinary people in many, many places in Europe. I know that there are some controversial cases affecting the UK, the one you mentioned, but actually it was the court that made it possible for UK to extradite Abu Qatada, it was the UK courts that has impeded it so this is … when it comes to prisoners vote, I believe it is possible to find a pragmatic solution that both the court and the House of Commons can live with.

DM: Okay, Mr Jagland, thank you very much indeed for your time. Thorbjorn Jagland there, the former Prime Minister of Norway there, with a full throated appeal to the UK to continue to play a full role within the European Union.