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DERMOT MURNAGHAN:             Now then, the Conservatives have got a tough fight ahead of them before the European elections next month, with UKIP hot on his heels David Cameron will be hoping his MPs toe the party line for the time being.  It’s not likely is it?  As many as forty of them are planning to rebel tomorrow in a crucial vote on HS2, the high speed rail line linking London to the north of England.  Well Cheryl Gillan served in David Cameron’s first cabinet but lost her job in the first reshuffle and she has been one of the most outspoken opponents of HS2 from within the party and Michael Fabricant was Vice Chairman of the party until just a few weeks ago when he was sacked, partly he says because of his views on HS2.   It should be said that both Michael and Cheryl’s constituencies would be affected by HS2 and as you can see they are nodding along.  Let’s say a very good morning to you and Cheryl, causing trouble within the party, I was talking to Mary Creagh the Shadow Transport Secretary and if he is going to win this vote he has to do it with the help of Labour votes.

CHERYL GILLAN: Well Labour is blowing hot and cold on this for a start so they can hardly complain about someone like me or Michael.  I’ve been consistent all the way through, right in the lead up to the last general election and to be fair to the Prime Minister, he appointed me to his cabinet knowing that I opposed HS2 and obviously knowing that he was going to try and drive it ahead but I think it’s perfectly valid. I think you have to have a parliament where Members of Parliament whose constituencies are affected by various matters can speak out freely, after all it is supposed to be the place in which we debate the great issues of the day and I think spending £50 billion is a great issue particularly after the economic nightmare we inherited when we came into government.   

DM: What would you think that, Michael Fabricant, if your constituency wasn’t affected? 

MICHAEL FABRICANT: Well I would hope that I would actually because although I support HS2 in principal, and I’m going to do Patrick McLaughlin’s job now and say that between five and ten thousand people arrive at Euston every morning standing because there just isn’t the rail capacity north-south, this present plan is seriously flawed.  I mean look, it doesn’t link with HS1 so all these wonderful stories we had that we’d be able to go from Birmingham or Manchester in the morning and have croissants at lunch time – do you have croissants at lunch time in Paris?

DM: It depends what time you get up.

MICHAEL FABRICANT: Quite but that ain’t going to happen because there’s going to be no link with HS1, it doesn’t link within the new London airport whichever it’s going to be, the extra runway.  It’s about as environmentally damaging, the route, as it possibly could be not just in my constituency, not just in Cheryl’s but in others too and unlike in other parts of the world, in the rest of Europe where it goes along existing transport carriage corridors, it ploughs through countryside and therefore is much more expensive than it need be because of all the tunnelling. 

DM: But it’s an argument that’s going to take years and years and years to build, it’s going to be an argument that goes on for years but what about this rebellion though?  The Prime Minister does not need this within your party with all the troubles, and we will get on to those in a minute, with all the troubles coming up about Europe. 

MICHAEL FABRICANT: Sometimes you have to do what’s right, you know. 

CHERYL GILLAN: And hold on one second, the government will always try to get its business, that’s right.  I’ve been a member of the Cabinet and we would always try and get government business but in this case the government can rely on Labour votes going through the lobby so in fact what we’re actually saying is we’re saying that for our constituencies and from our perspective that we think this project should be rethought again. 

DM: So Michael Fabricant, Labour have freed you up.  If Labour were against it what would you do?

MICHAEL FABRICANT: If Labour were against it, the rebellion would be a lot bigger than forty I can tell you because the government whips, and as Cheryl says I was a whip for seven years, the government whips advise Number Ten that without having Labour support the legislation wouldn’t get through and I believe very, very clearly from all the consultations that we did that if Labour weren’t supporting it, the legislation wouldn’t go through, there would be double the amount of rebellion that we’ve got now.  People are saying well, if it’s going to go through anyway why use up our stocks with the whips so probably, as you said earlier on, only 30 or 40 will rebel but I can tell you that 80 to 100 people have really serious doubts either about the principle of HS2 including its cost or, as in my case, the implementation of HS2.

CHERYL GILLAN: Michael has made some very valid points here, Dermot, if you think about it because he said that the connectivity has changed, the speed requirements have changed, the business case doesn’t stack up and the capacity…

DM: There is the business idea that if you can use Wi-Fi on the train you can do an awful lot of work.

CHERYL GILLAN: Well the business case was based first of all on there being no useful time spent on a train which all of us know is a complete and utter nonsense and then you have to examine is this really the project we need at the moment linking just Birmingham and London because what we’re talking about tomorrow is just Birmingham and London.  I’ve always maintained that if you really wanted to rebalance the north-south divide you would look at starting this in the north, connecting those northern cities and making sure you don’t have that effect of sucking in business to London because in fact if we build it Birmingham London first what we’re doing is bringing the commuting distances closer to London and that will inevitably, as it has in all other countries, it will start to suck that business into London so I would have said to the government, stand back, look at it in the north, plan your airports, plan your future transport corridors and then look at where you want to put it.

MICHAEL FABRICANT: And it is crazy, by the way, we’ve got the Davis Review going into which is going to have the third runway, which airport will it be, Boris Island, Heathrow, Timbuktu and yet …

DM: Okay, I’m not moving on to airports but what I wanted to ask you about though was with that spirit of rebellion in the air the UKIP victory or coming in second place in the European elections it seems looming, what’s that going to do to your party?  There are people in your party we know, and you are free to speak now Michael Fabricant, you’re not in the Whips office any more, we know there are people already freaking out, what are they going to be like the day after that vote?  

MICHAEL FABRICANT: Like Cheryl, we both went into parliament at the same time and in 1999 the Conservatives did absolutely brilliantly, we came top and William Hague who you have just had on who was leader of the party at the time, said see, we’re all set now for a brilliant election victory at the next general election and you know, it didn’t make any difference at all and I think Members of Parliament will realise that whatever the Euro result it won’t have any effect.  

DM: I’ve heard that argument but can the party keep its nerve?  Can the party take that nice and calmly, this will pass?

CHERYL GILLAN: Despite my differences with my party over HS2 I actually have watched close up David Cameron lead this country from the brink of bankruptcy and bring it back and what I would say to my colleagues, in the same way as I would encourage them to vote against HS2, I would encourage them to hold their nerve because it’s this party that will give the country the referendum on Europe, it’s not going to be some fly by night UKIPpers.  They have played the politics of convenience and are now the politicians that are the party of protest so people don’t look too closely at them.  When you look very closely at UKIP you wouldn’t want what they have on offer so I say to my colleagues and to everybody in the Conservative party, keep your nerve, there will be a good manifesto and the Conservatives should win the next election.

MICHAEL FABRICANT: Hear-hear to that.  

DM: That is going to be well tested.  Very good to see you Michael Fabricant, Cheryl Gillan, thank you very much indeed.