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DERMOT MURNAGHAN:             Fourth place, that’s where the Liberal Democrats are predicted to find themselves after next month’s European Elections.  A YouGov poll for the Sunday Times found that UKIP will come first and they don’t even have any MPs.  Is there anything the Lib Dems can do to stop annihilation?  Well the Liberal Democrat President, Tim Farron, joins me now from Kendal in Cumbria and a very good morning to you Tim Farron.  Do you think then you are paying the price for going into government as the Liberal Democrats, that you are no long quote/unquote “the anti-party party”?

TIM FARRON: Well when you stand for election there is of course an occupational hazard that you might actually get elected and that’s surely what you should want if you are somebody who believes passionately that Britain should be run in a different way and that the world should operate in a different way, then you stand for election and you get into power sometimes and quite right too and so, absolutely, these are over the last three or four years the first Liberal mid-terms since Lloyd George’s day and of course there’s a price to pay but I’d rather be in a position making a difference, making the economy stronger, society fairer on the inside than outside carping.

DM: So the aspirations then, what have you got, eleven MEPs at the moment?  It would be a great performance if you could hold on to all of them even.

TIM FARRON: Well any electoral system, however fair it is or not, is fairly unpredictable as to what will come out in terms of numbers of seats at the end of it so our main job in all this is to stand up for Britain’s interests and to say okay, UKIPs position is clear and actually I respect it because at least it’s clear, but it’s wrong, staggeringly wrong for the future of this country.  There are at least three million jobs that depend on our relationship with the European Union, our ability to tackle climate change across borders depends on being in the EU, so does our ability to catch criminals and so it would be absolute madness for Britain to leave the European Union and somebody needs to have the backbone and say, hang about, we will sleepwalk out of the European Union if somebody doesn’t stand up and say Britain needs to stay in for Britain’s interests and that is the Liberal Democrats so this election is in many ways a two horse race between UKIP who want out and the Liberal Democrats who want in and if you vote for anybody else in a sense it will have been a wasted vote.

DM: So no regrets within the party leadership then about your leader who stood up and did just that on national television and had two debates with Nigel Farage, no regrets about that?  Mr Farage seems to have got a boost from it. 

TIM FARRON: None whatsoever.  If you think about it, sometimes in politics you really ought to take the unpopular side in an argument and you certainly should it if it’s right and what is in Britain’s interests is staying as part of the European Union.  It doesn’t mean that everything in the EU is absolutely right and rosy, of course it’s not but it would be economic suicide for us to leave the European Union and only one party – the Liberal Democrats – are being honest enough to say so and Nick Clegg showed real bravery and integrity knowing full well he was taking the unpopular side in an argument to stand up and make that case.  It’s done him I think a lot of good and obviously we want to do well in the elections, that’s clearly what we are aiming to do but this isn’t necessarily just about the Liberal Democrats interests, this is about Britain’s interests.  If Britain leaves the European Union it will be a staggering blow to our economy and to our significance as a world power and if the Labour party and the Tory party don’t have the backbone to stand up and say so and to stand up to Mr Farage, then it means Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats will  have to do so and we are proudly doing so.

DM: Can I just ask you, within the Lib Dems is the feeling that after those debates and dependent perhaps on the performance in the European Elections of UKIP, that they have earned a place at the table or the podium in future General Election televised debates?

TIM FARRON: Well it’s clearly not for us to decide.  I take the view that it does depend on your showing in the last election of that sort and in the last General Election UKIP hardly featured although they have certainly earned themselves a place at the table when it comes to European Parliamentary election debates but I think when it comes to Westminster elections that has yet to be proved.   

DM: Okay, can I just ask you some other internal questions about Sir Cyril Smith, the former Liberal MP and all the allegations going on about him and his past, you say some serious questions need to be answered by the Liberal Democrats – what are they and how will you go about answering them?

TIM FARRON:  Well the critical thing to remember here is that there are two police investigations as we speak going into the Knowl View Children’s Home in Rochdale and the Elm Guest House in Richmond in London, police investigations and they involve people of interest to them which include I understand people from several political parties.  It is very, very serious and the people who matter the most here are the young people at the time who were the victims of alleged abuse who had the courage to come forward at this time.  It is very, very important that the police are allowed to proceed with full investigations without any kind of hampering or speculation on a political level.

DM: But wouldn’t you like to know, I mean the Lib Dems are in a position, aren’t you, to talk to some current and former party members, what about having your own investigation or an independent one?

TIM FARRON: I don’t think anybody, neither me nor you, should be trying to do the police’s job for them, we’ll do it a lot less well and it is really important in paying absolute respect and giving the justice that the young people at the time deserve that we do this properly and that means a full police investigation.  Those things are going on as we speak and my view is, as you have seen from Rochdale Civic Society, from various things that may have been the case around Westminster according to some of the reports that have been made, that there are people from all political parties involved in these allegations and so of course lots of questions will need to be asked by the police and then indeed everybody involved will need to answer them. 

DM: But if you have your own investigation you might find things which the police don’t know about which you can then take to the police, I mean that happened with News International didn’t it, News Corporation, over phone hacking that they set up eventually the Management Standards Committee and found things going on which they then took to the authorities.  Shouldn’t the Lib Dems do that?

TIM FARRON: Well first of all I think it is important to remember that Nick Clegg has said only this week, and I agree with him fully, that this is a matter that is for police investigation and I think the danger in an issue like this is that it is such a serious set of offences that are being claimed here with the most appalling consequences for the young people involved and potentially involving people from all political parties, that means really that for us to interfere – and indeed for any other political party to interfere in that process, I think that potentially we would be doing those potential victims a great disservice.  It is really important that the police take this up and the questions the police have to answer I guess is to why this was dropped and proper investigations were not concluded 30, 40 years ago and so there are those questions to be answered within police circles but today I have no doubt whatsoever and full confidence in the fact that the police are taking this matter and these matters very seriously and we should support them in doing that.

DM: I mean some people would still not understand how it would be interfering if you found new information that would be of interest to the police but we’ll move on there, do you think that at least he should posthumously lose his knighthood, Sir Cyril Smith?

TIM FARRON: I’ve seen that being speculated about today, I think a knighthood dies with its holder but certainly one outcome of the police investigation when matters have been proven for example if they are, that sort of thing potentially might be looked at but my understanding is that your title dies with you. 

DM: Okay, can I just ask you about another personality being discussed, Lord Rennard  within your party.  I spoke to Ed Davey a couple of weeks back on this show and he told me ‘I’m not close enough to discussion that are going on with Chris Rennard’, what are the discussions that are taking place with him about his future role with the Liberal Democrats?

TIM FARRON: Well there is a process that’s been gone through, as you know, going back earlier in the year there was the outcome of a report that suggested amongst other things that Lord Rennard should apologise and there is a process being gone through in terms of mediation to try to ensure that that is the outcome that we receive.  It is an internal party matter and being dealt with appropriately and it is something that is being dealt with by the English party, the English section of the Liberal Democrats now.

DM: But do you foresee him playing a role within the party, within it’s campaigns?

TIM FARRON: No, Nick Clegg has made it very, very clear that Chris Rennard would not play any party in his campaign and the consequences of the outcome of the process that we kicked off and the party kicked off at the beginning of this year are still being gone through at the moment and it is appropriate that internal matters like this are dealt with properly and according with due process for the sake of those people who have complained and indeed for the sake of the person complained against, it’s important that they receive fair justice.

DM: Just to be crystal clear about this, what you and Ed Davey are saying, I asked Ed Davey whether Lord Rennard would now have anything ever to do again with the Liberal Democrats and Mr Davey said he wasn’t sure whether that will be the case and it was for others to decide whether he will return to roles within the party.  You’re saying that there will never be a role for him within the party?

TIM FARRON: Like Ed Davey, neither of us have the power and neither of us seek the power to summarily get rid of any individual or deal with anybody in that way, we have internal processes and it frustrates people sometimes I know when the Liberal Democrats are desperately democratic and do things according to proper internal processes but there you have it, it’s important to ensure that those people who have complained and those people complained against get fair justice and have proper processes gone through and so it’s not up to me or indeed Ed Davey just to decide or speculate upon the future of a single individual but that process is being gone through and we are trying to make sure we are fair to everybody concerned. 

DM: Okay, Mr Farron, talk to me about Christianity.  Were you glad to hear the Prime Minister say we are still, in his view, a Christian country?

TIM FARRON: I am a Christian, a committed Christian and I also don’t think that politicians should play politics with it.  I think that in many ways it is honest to say that Britain is not fundamentally a country that s itself to one religion or another.  You don’t become a Christian because the country you live in buys into a state faith, that’s why I have always felt we should disestablish the Church of England, for the good of the Church of England, and give it the freedom to speak the message that it was set up to speak but it’s good I think when these matters are discussed, I think it is always just a bit of a shame when you get the strong suspicion that they are only being raised by the Prime Minister and others to try and make partisan points and when all’s said and done, this whole matter is rather more important than that.

DM: Okay, Mr Farron, great to talk to you, thank you very much indeed.  Tim Farron there, President of the Liberal Democrats, talking to us from leafy Kendal there.