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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: So then, big Conservative losses predicted at this week’s local elections, Labour must have high hopes but could UKIP pose a threat to that party as well? I’m joined now by the Labour MP and Shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Hilary Benn, good morning to you.

HILARY BENN: Dermot, good morning to you.

DM: Let me ask you then about the local elections and we just heard there from Ken Clarke and you and he have both been through many local elections, probably not quite as many as Ken Clarke in your case but he is saying, well look, we won all those seats back in 2009, it was a low point for Labour, it was the tail end of the Gordon Brown, it was a high watermark for the Conservatives wasn’t it?

HB: It certainly was and it is theirs to lose really. If I were David Cameron I would be very worried about the threat from UKIP because the real test at these elections is going to be how the Tories do. I mean UKIP is a party of protest, it is I’d say it’s not a party of government especially with what we’ve seen revealed in the papers today but for us these are very important elections, this is about showing that we can fight and win in all parts of the country as one nation Labour but 2009 was a very bad result and these are predominantly Tory heartlands so they are different from the local elections of the last two years.

DM: You mentioned UKIP there, they can hurt Labour as well can’t they with a good showing? You just don’t know the way these things pan out.

HB: No, you can’t be absolutely sure but it is quite clear that David Cameron has a lot more to worry about because all the evidence is that UKIP is taking a lot more votes from the Conservatives than they are from us or anybody else and look, we’re fighting to win everywhere because this is about who you want in your county hall and having Labour representation makes a real difference.

DM: Do you think it’s a legitimate tactic, just observing from the outside, having been in the bruising world of politics for so long, that UKIP are actually saying to the Conservatives, you’ve been trawling through the past of some of our candidates, isn’t that what politicians do? I mean every week at Prime Minister’s Questions, quoting things you said in the past back at each other. Can’t you say to UKIP, well welcome to proper politics?

HB: Well I think as UKIP have certainly risen in the polls, they are being subjected to a lot more scrutiny and quite right too because the other story in the paper this morning is about UKIP members saying, do you know what, we don’t seem to have any policy at all so they have got a problem. Look, if you’re going to stand for elected office then you should expect to be scrutinised for the views that you hold including the views that you expressed in the past so I don't know what they’re complaining for.

DM: And we know the phrase that the Prime Minister used some time ago, before he was Prime Minister, about UKIP – fruit cakes and closet racists were amongst the phrases that he used. Ken Clarke seemed to endorse that saying he’d met some UKIP members who fitted that profile, what about you?

HB: Well judging by what’s in the papers this morning, I think some of their candidates are pretty unappealing and some that they’ve had to take off their list because of what’s been revealed and look, in public life, in politics, you are subjected to scrutiny and that really matters in elections are the concerns that people have about the squeeze on their living standards, the terrible state of the economy because George Osborne’s plan simply is not working and people are thinking, well how can we get out of this? And that’s what Labour is offering because we’ve got practical plans.

DM: Okay, in the local elections, so what are you saying? Let’s swing it round to that of course, what are you offering at the local level? Are you saying, with so many people feeling the effects at the local authority level, are you going to say we’ll allow them to raise council tax more, we’ll put more money into them from central government and these cuts won’t happen?

HB: Well on council tax, councils quite rightly are doing their darnedest to try and freeze it if they can but what’s the government doing? It is forcing people on the very lowest incomes because of the cuts in council tax benefit to face an increase so even in councils where there is a freeze it is the poor who are facing an increase now at the very same time that David Cameron says it’s very, very important that we should give the richest in our society a tax reduction. Now that is about values and it shows that David Cameron has got the wrong set of values because in effect he is taking money from the least well off and giving it to the most well off.

DM: Yes, but it is about economics as well isn’t it, it is about this very low pot of money, it’s where the central government then is going to put more money into the local government, that was my question.

HB: Well the first thing you could do is to distribute that is made available to local government in a much more fair way. For instance why is it that David Cameron’s local authority this year is going to be getting an increase in its spending per head when some of the most deprived communities, their local authorities are seeing a big reduction in spending per head? That’s another example of the government being out of touch, having the wrong set of values and taking the wrong decisions.

DM: But when we hear these pledges time and again on cuts in so many areas that the question comes back to Labour and it has to be addressed pretty soon does it now, when we have got the new spending round coming through soon, the government is going to announce its plans in June for spending beyond the next election, it comes to the point where Labour has to say what it would do, would Labour outspend the current plans put forward by the Conservatives and the Lib Dems or would it stick to them?

HB: Well we’ll announce our spending plans in the run up to the election and Ed Balls and Ed Miliband have made that very clear but if you look at the policies we are arguing for now, for example we have got a housing crisis, we have a lot of people, building workers, who are unemployed. We’ve said to the government that you should use the money you are getting from the 4G auction proceeds to build 100,000 affordable homes. That would take people off the waiting list, it would take unemployed building workers off the register, they start to pay tax, they don’t have to pay JSA, that’s one thing. Second example, we have got a high level of long-term youth unemployment, young people who have worked hard at school, they come out of school, college, they find there’s nothing for them to do. We would repeat the banker’s bonus tax, I’ll tell you Dermot that would be pretty darn popular, in order to give 100,000 young people a start in their working life. Now there are two very practical policies. Capping rail fares, which is a real problem for a lot of commuters, those are practical policies that we are offering the British people. Why? Because Ed Miliband understands the whole show, you ask the public who understands the concerns we’ve got and Ed Miliband outscores David Cameron every time.

DM: A lot of people would say there are spending commitments of course, moving money around but some of that money presumably is earmarked for paying off debt at the moment by the current government, what about the issue of …

HB: But debt’s going up, the national debt is going up as you know.

DM: Well lowering the deficit. Let me ask you about the spending round, okay there are departments which are beginning to submit their budgets and the issue of ring fencing, of course it is the department that you used to shadow, International Development, is it right that the spending on that, if the economy grows, goes up and up?

HB: Well the thing about linking your spending on international aid to your gross national income, in good times it goes up and in times when the economy is not doing so well then it’s not quite as much but I’ve seen with my own eyes, Dermot, children whose lives have been saved because they have been vaccinated against diseases that our children don’t die of. I see children who have had the chance to go to school and I’ll tell you what, that is because of the generosity of the British people. I am quite clear that giving a helping hand to the poorest in the world is part of our moral obligation as a nation and I think it’s right that we do so.

DM: But I mean people look into where some of that money goes and under your previous administration it has been pointed out that we were giving money to Russia, we still give money to India and it’s got a rocket programme. People understand I suspect for the very poorest in the world but this money is scattered round the world on some pretty crazy projects.

HB: Well we ended the programme to Russia, the point about India – and the government has announced it is going to phase that programme out – is there is still a very, very large number of poor people and you’re right, it is the responsibility of governments to look after their own people but I think that the better off world, and we are relatively speaking, has an obligation to play its part. When people sometimes say does politics make a difference? Indeed there is a crisis of confidence in some respects in politics, globally making that contribution can make a difference but it is also true of these local elections because take the hated bedroom tax, now that’s the government’s approach. Take what Labour Sandwell is doing, they’ve said to pensioners would you move into a one bedroom property and the pensioners say, do you know what, that spare bedroom I’ve got at the moment is where my grandkids come to stay, it’s where my carer comes when I’m not feeling well, so Labour Sandwell said right, fair point, what if we build you two bedroom bungalows, you’ve still got a spare room, it’s more appropriate to your needs and do you know what, the pensioners say yes, we’re prepared to move and you free up two, three and four bedroom properties for people to move into. That’s Labour values at work.

DM: Okay, a different approach to the government’s attempt to do that. The last question on pensions, not those pensioners, richer pensioners, I suppose it would apply to your dad, what do you think of IDS’s view that they should give back their benefits to the Exchequer? Why not just tax these benefits?

HB: Well I don’t agree with him. The fact is we have certain universal benefits in our society, people have worked hard, they’ve paid their taxes and they get that, in this case when they have retired. If Iain Duncan Smith is thinking of changing the commitment that David Cameron made at the last election to leave those where they were, then it’s about time he was clear and more importantly, David Cameron needs to come clean and tell us, is he going to break yet another of his election promises?

DM: Okay Mr Benn, thank you very much indeed for your time, Hilary Benn there.

HB: Thank you.