ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, as the Syrian civil war continues, the humanitarian crisis intensifies. Refugees have been flooding over the border into Jordan and other countries for over two years now and in Jordan they now account for 10% of its population and the country says it needs the world to act. Well I’m joined now by the Foreign Minister of Jordan, Nasser Judeh, a very good morning to you. I mean there are just some incredible statistics here as read out there, so 10-11% now of Jordan’s population made up by Syrian refugees, how can you possibly cope with that?

NASSER JUDEH: Well we can’t and it is not just about those who fled to Jordan post-crisis, post March 2011. If you take into account the 700,000 Syrians who were there before the crisis then you are talking about a total of 1.3 million people and that’s more than 20% of the population and you are absolutely right, we are always commended for doing this on behalf of the international community but as we shoulder our responsibility which we’ve done historically with wave after wave of refugees, we’re saying if we are going to continue doing this on behalf of the international community then the international community has to step up to the plate.

DM: And you’ve been saying that the United Nations. What has the response been? Presumably the figures are incredibly high, just to deal with this immediate crisis and the feeding and watering and healing of all these refugees.

NASSER JUDEH: Look, Dermot, there is an outpouring of goodwill I have to say by individual countries and international organisations who are operating and co-operating with us on the ground, UNICEF, UNHCR, WFP, you name it, they are all there and there have been pledges which have come through, way short of what is needed. I just arrived from New York this morning and I am actually on my way to Geneva this afternoon where we are having a meeting of more than 87 countries as part of the Executive Committee of UNHCR to really address the needs of countries neighbouring Syria. We had a function in New York a couple of days ago with the EU and I said very, very clearly that while we really appreciate saying well done Jordan, I think this has to be translated into interaction on the ground and it is not about pledges anymore, it is about putting words into action.

DM: Let’s just jump forward to a long-term solution, peace and stability in Syria so the refugees don’t just not want to come over the border but those that are there hopefully want to return to safe and secure homes at some point. How far away do you see that as being and is this chemical weapons accord, the resolution, is this part of the steps towards that?

NASSER JUDEH: Well, let me just say one last thing about the refugees. We have about 125, 130,000 people in refugee camps but about 450,000 plus who are in Jordanian towns and cities and urban centres, I mean really a strain on our already challenged economy, particularly key sectors like energy, health, water, education and job opportunities so it’s a whole host of challenges.

DM: But it could have a destabilising effect ultimately on your own country.

NASSER JUDEH: From that point of view. Luckily we’re very fortunate that we don’t have the demographic and ethnic and sectarian complexities of other countries, I think this is a serious source of concern but you said in the context of refugees, we are told there are four to five million internally displaced persons within Syria, potential refugees. Should something kinetic happening, we are talking about 500 to 1000 people flocking into Jordan every day but what if you suddenly wake up in the middle of the night and you are told there are 100- 150,000 at your border? How do you cope? Will we have the infrastructure? I think these are key challenges. Putting that in the context of what you just said which is the developments in New York and before New York, we have now a resolution 2118, the UN Security Council Resolution 2118 and it can just be one other resolution and it can be in the context of the political solution that we all seek for Syria. It certainly addresses the chemical weapons issue and we as a down land country and a contiguous country for Syria are certainly worried about that but I think ….

DM: But it is only step on the road and what is the Jordanian position at the moment when it comes to Bashir Al Assad? Is there a solution that leaves him in power, in control of at least part of Syria or is the bottom line ultimately that he has to go?

NASSER JUDEH: The bottom line is what we all agreed on in Geneva on 30th June 2012 and there was an operative sentence in that communique that was issued almost a year and five months ago and that is establishing a transitional governing body with mutual consent and full transfer of executive authority. Now the agreement between the Russians and the US recently was to call for an international conference that operationalizes this paragraph and implements it, meaning that you negotiate with the regime on the establishment of the transitional governing body but once that is established then it is a new ball game.

DM: So as it stands now, Bashir Al Assad will never accept that, he’s as we’ve seen been fighting ferociously for two and a half years, ultimately using chemical weapons. Is anything that says you have to go ever going to entice him to talk substantively about leaving that country?

NASSER JUDEH: Well if you look at Resolution 2118 it is very, very clear in tackling the issue of chemical weapons, that is a serious issue and like I said, as a country that neighbours Syria we have always warned, His Majesty King Abdullah II has warned from the beginning of the use of chemical weapons, a potential danger of their use and it has happened. We said it was going to be a game changer and it is a game changer in the fact that it gave birth to a huge diplomatic initiative. Now you have an agreement between Russia and the United States and the agreement is on the implementation of Geneva One and Geneva One means essentially that you have to negotiate a political solution and the parameters of that are clearly well known.

DM: In between that, and if it ever does happen as your King talked about, the other crimes continue. Bashir Al Assad still visits this horror upon his people, the killing hasn’t stopped, it hasn’t even paused, it’s accelerated.

NASSER JUDEH: The killing has not stopped, the violence has not stopped and this is why we’re saying it should not just be the used for the question of chemical weapons, dangerous as they are but there are some cynics out there, and they are absolutely right, who say that killing 130,000 people with conventional weapons is okay but killing 1000 people with chemical weapons is not. Of course killing is killing and it is all rejected and unacceptable but it is the political solution that will end the killing and I think the sooner you have that kick in, the better.

DM: Just lastly, to get your reaction to the tentative talks, the compacts that have taken place between the United States, the first time in more than 30 years, between the United States and Iran, can this be added into the mix of moving towards more diplomacy rather than the threat of force in the region?

NASSER JUDEH: I don't think if you can add it into the immediate mix but it is certainly in the general context and we have always said that the Iranian nuclear file is best resolved through diplomatic means and there was an on-going effort and I think it will continue in the context of the E3+3 or what the Americans call the T5+1 and these efforts will continue but you have a first time high-level set of contacts between US officials and the Iranians. Kathy Ashton of the European Union has been conducting this effort on behalf of the E3+3 for a good while now and if there is a resolution to the Iranian nuclear file diplomatically, peacefully, it is better for all of us. We all warn against the danger of yet another escalation in the region so this is an opportunity and I think you now have, I was talking to a friend about this, you have many pots and pans on the stove and I think some of them are boiling, some are simmering, let’s see what happens.

DM: Very well put. Nasser Judeh, thank you very much indeed for coming in to talk to us. The Jordanian Foreign Minister there on primarily the refugee crisis faced by his country.