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DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Labour will push their energy price freeze proposals a bit further this week, they’ll call a vote in the House of Commons on Wednesday to highlight divisions on energy policy between the parties.  Let’s say a very good morning to Caroline Flint, the Shadow Energy Secretary, she joins me now from Doncaster.  Caroline Flint, it seems the Big Six energy companies, one of them moving towards, has introduced an energy price freeze and the other may well follow suit, do we then need statutory regulation to impose one?

CAROLINE FLINT: Well what’s become very clear is what David Cameron and the energy companies said was impossible about price freezes is clearly possible and last week the reference to the CMA for a full competition review sort of really reinforces what Labour has been saying for the last few years, this market is broken.  But why should it be that only five million customers of SSE benefit from a price freeze when the government has got it within its powers to modify the licences to make sure everybody benefits from the price freeze whilst this review is undertaken.  That is what Labour is demanding next week alongside getting on with a package of reforms that are absolutely necessary.

DM: Okay but there is a fundamental point here isn’t there that we do live in a free market economy.  You say this particular market is broken but isn’t it better if individual companies come to these positions themselves than having the state imposing it upon them?

CAROLINE FLINT: Absolutely not, that’s what’s been part of the problem.  We’ve had piecemeal voluntary activities from the companies, they end up with six different versions of what that reform should be and actually governments are there to step in when markets fail and they are certainly there to set the framework for how markets should operate, whether that’s in the energy market or any other market, banking for example, and that is why we need to stop this piecemeal voluntary activity that has dogged this area for so many years and get on with something that everybody can sign up to trust.  Our  price freeze is about allowing us, if we win the next election, to have twenty months to bring forward reform to this market, to make it more transparent, more competitive and a better regulator, a tougher regulator, to make sure that that watchdog stands up for customers, that’s what we need.

DM: Can I just move you on there?  You mentioned there broken markets, banking you say, how would a Labour government further regulate the banks?  What would the state do to them?

CAROLINE FLINT: Well one of the things we’ve said about the banking sector, we have got four big banks that dominate that market and what we’ve said is we need some challenger banks in there but also look at how we can separate some of their activities from the high risk, if you like, as it’s called casino banking, from the day to day banking that most of us actually rely on and small businesses certainly rely on and that’s what we intend to do and …

DM: Isn’t that already going to happen?

CAROLINE FLINT: Well we think there’s more could be done and what we’ve asked the CMA for is about not should we do this but how do we go about doing that and that’s important.  All these areas, Dermot, whether it’s on banking, whether it’s on the energy market, Ed Miliband is making the weather on these issues and the government are trailing.  They are trailing because they are not willing to stand up and they are not willing to address these fundamental issues of trust that the public feel are so important. 

DM: Do you really think that Ed Miliband is making the weather at the moment?  He had a ten point lead in the polls a year ago, according to one today it’s down to a one point lead, is that weather making?

CAROLINE FLINT: I think we are making the weather.  What are we talking about today?  We’re talking about energy price reform and a price freeze.  He set that going last year at our party conference and we haven’t stopped talking about it ever since and he absolutely battered David Cameron last week.  Look, polls vary and there is one poll today where we’re 1% ahead, there’s another poll where we’re 7% ahead.  The truth is, if we were in a normal election cycle we’d be on the short campaign to a general election now and the party that should be really worried is the Conservative party because based on these polls there’s no way that Cameron could win.

DM: But do you think that Mr Miliband is performing like a real winner here?

CAROLINE FLINT:  Look, we have a united party, the Tories don’t.  We won 2000 extra councillors over the last few years, 60 more Labour councillors have come to us but also we are wiping the floor with them in by-elections and on the big issues of the day, whether it’s on energy prices, the banks but also the cost of living – you know, whatever way the government want to dress it up, people are going to be worse off at the end of this parliament than they were at the start and these are important things for people who feel whatever the government says about economic recovery, they’re not feeling the benefit from it and a recovery that doesn’t work for everybody isn’t a recovery and that’s not just here in the north of England where I am today but that’s in the south, the east and the west as well. 

DM: But the economy had to feel some pain, didn’t it, after what happened in 2007/8/9 on Labour’s watch when it went kaput, we knew things were going to be difficult whoever came into power, are you saying that if Labour had been in power people really would be better off after that?

CAROLINE FLINT: What I’m saying is that Labour had a plan to half the deficit over the parliament, that was our plan.  This government decided it wanted to wipe it out and in doing so it sucked the life out of our economy.  Don’t forget that at the general election of 2010 the country actually was recovering and then we went back into recession.  This is a problem of this government’s making and look, nobody has a crystal ball on the future but their promises haven’t been delivered and the consequences of that is that people are going to be £1600 worse off in 2015 than they were in 2010 and although I welcome every single job there is out there, Dermot, it’s not good enough that when people don’t feel that when they work hard they are getting some benefit from that.

DM: But do you think it is really dressing it up, as you put it, just to point out the figures – the gap is closing between inflation and wages and indeed by the time the general election comes wages could be rising faster than inflation.  Doesn’t that shoot down your cost of living argument?

CAROLINE FLINT: Well, you know, let’s wait and see on that.  All I can talk about is the reality now and the reality now after four years of promises that haven’t been delivered is that actually individual working people are worse off, families are worse off and around the country people are working hard, often taking on more hours, often taking on another job and at the end of the week they are not seeing in their pay packet anything that helps them to have the little things in life we all enjoy because they are too busy having to pay the bills and the truth is that energy prices have gone up twice the rate of inflation and on top of that energy companies haven’t played fair.  They have pushed their prices up in a way that cannot be justified and that’s why next week we’ll have a motion urging the government to use their powers to force a price freeze.

DM: Okay, can I just ask a quick question about Scotland?  I’ve got Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond coming on the show a little bit later on and we’re hearing concerns from the No Campaign and in particular some of your colleagues north of the border aren’t pulling their weight.

CAROLINE FLINT: I think we’re all working very hard to fight this campaign to make sure that we recognise that we all benefit from being together as one union and the sum of all our parts and the rewards that come with that I think are hugely beneficial but we also share the risks as well.  We share the risks and in doing so we do that as a nation coming together and I think that’s very important.  What is really clear is that the SNP are running scared of a debate because they want to have their cake and eat it.  They feel they can have independence but keep everything the same and do you know what, Dermot, I don’t get that.  I’m a pretty common sense sort of person and I don't know how you can have full independence and expect everything to stay the same and they are afraid of the debate now taking place which shows that actually there are choices to be made here.  I would like Scotland to vote no in September but that’s a choice for Scots but when they do go into those polling booths they need to all understand what are the risks and what are the consequences, as well as the enormous benefits of staying together.

DM: Actually the thought occurred when I asked that question, I know Gordon Brown got involved in the debate there but what about his performance, your former leader of course who you didn’t entirely get along with, what about his performance south of the border in the House of Commons?  He hardly ever turns up for debates, he claims plenty of public money, he should stand down at the next election really, announce that he’s going.

CAROLINE FLINT: Look, choices for people about whether they want to continue as an MP or not are a matter for them and their constituency parties and I’m not going to comment on that and yes, do you know what, I have had disagreements with Gordon over the years, there’s no getting away from that but I’ve also on many occasions agreed with what he has done for the sake of this country and there is no doubt that he has been a powerful politician.  Under Tony Blair in the last Labour government we achieved so much, not least the national minimum wage which he had very much a full role in making sure we got that policy through so that’s a matter for Gordon. But you can disagree with some people sometimes and then agree with them on other issues as well and that’s what politics is all about.

DM: Okay, Caroline Flint, thank you very much indeed, very good to talk to you.  Caroline Flint there in Doncaster.