DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Tell me about this, isn’t it fairly strange for a member of the opposition to be leading these trade missions, as I said, to Nigeria and Ghana.  Isn’t that the job of the government?  

CHUKA UMUNNA MP: Well look, I don’t think you have to be in government to promote British business and that’s why we’re so pleased to be asked by the London Chambers of Commerce and actually, in part, the government.  UKTI co-sponsored the mission to Nigeria and Ghana, and look, this is absolutely crucial to the future of our economy. We have got to sort out the balance of trade deficit that we have.  It was £58bn in 2012, that’s the highest that it’s been since 1989 and if we want to sort out the issues that people face at home, not just the fact that we don’t have enough jobs, 2.5 million people out of work, but also they’re not paying enough, the people who are jobs right now are in jobs which aren’t paying enough, then we’ve got to ensure that we match up what we do here in the UK to the demand that is coming from these big economic power shifts to the South, the East and to Africa.  

DM: Yeah, I’m smiling here because I’ve heard exactly that analysis from the man you shadow, from the Business Secretary, from the Prime Minister.  You are all singing from the same hymn sheet. I don’t ….  

CU: Frankly I don’t think that is a bad thing.  I actually think it’s quite nice to take the party politics out of this.  But, I’ll tell you one thing. I mean I agree with the Prime Minister in the sense of us being in a global race, where I disagree with him is that I think he sees this as somewhat of a global race to the bottom.  You’ll know the government’s obsession with watering down people’s rights at work, screwing down wages; actually the way we can deliver better outcomes for people here is to ensure that we go for a global race to the top and that means…  

DM:  Give us practical examples, what did you say then, I know it’s a country you know well in the world, Nigeria, what did you say there, where obviously wages are way way lower than ours, do you say well we’ll only do business with you if you pay a living wage to your employees or something like that?  

CU: No, it’s not that.  What I am saying is we’re not going to be able to compete with China, India, Nigeria, Ghana on labour cost, that is not how we are going to be able to succeed. Where we will be able to succeed is by producing more innovative products and services that the world wants to buy.  So that means we actually need a proper industrial strategy which is something that I’ve been talking about for many months, where we actually grow the thriving, innovative sectors that we have in the UK that can meet the demand that come from these countries in the South and the East. So just take for example, one that’s talked about a lot of the time is our car market.  We make some of the best cars in the world here. There’s more…  

DM: And export a heck of a lot.  

CU: Absolutely, and there’s more computer code in a Jaguar XJ then there is in a jumbo jet for example.  There are lot of other sectors, aerospace, food and living, the creative industries in particular, where because we do things very well, innovatively and produce quality goods, we can actually sell those out into the world.  One of the other problems I think with the government’s approach is, I think it’s fair to say, they are quite focused on the BRICs, Brazil Russia, India and China, now of course we need focus there but that mustn’t be at the expense of also ensuring that we have a focus on the other economies coming up behind.  And that’s why the African trip was so important, 7 of the 10 fastest growing economies in the world at the moment are in Africa.  But if you actually look at our exports, we export more to the Czech Republic for example, than we do to Nigeria. Now the Czech Republic has a population of a 15th of the size of Nigeria and so that doesn’t make sense.  

DM:  I need to throw another dimension into this. Should we have any qualms about issues such as governance, human rights, or should we just do business with anyone who’ll buy our goods. Prime Minister is out on a trip at the moment, presumably going to talk to some countries where let’s say their record on human rights is less than squeaky clean.  Should we just do business with them, come what may, like the Chinese?  

CU:   No, we should be absolutely resolute in our determination and insistance that good transparency, corporate governance and human rights are all adhered to and that is one of the reasons why towards the end of our time in government we introduced the bribery act. But the point is…  

DM:  That is different though.  What about just human rights abuses, you can say there’s some countries, we just can’t deal with you because you’re too far beyond the pale.  

CU:   I think we shouldn’t be sacrificing human rights at the altar of trade and you’ve always got to make sure that you get the right balance but it is possible to do trade in a proper and correct way whilst adhering to human rights, ensuring that there’s proper governance when you’re doing trade with these nations. Nigeria is actually a good example. Nigeria is an amazing story in part because you have amazing growth, 7% forecast this year, despite the ongoing governance issues.  But we are very clear, with British business that go and trade there.  We expect you to trade properly, we don’t expect you to be engaging in some of the corruption and other practices that we see happening in those countries because that’s not good for us and it isn’t actually good for the people over there.  

DM:   Closer to home, you’ve also been having a bit of a swipe at the big supermarkets haven’t you, talking an awful lot more about the high street, the need for local shops and local businesses but looking at the record, the expansion of these big supermarket, you look at the Labour years from 1997 on for instance, Tesco, shot to the top by building hundreds of new stores.  

CU:   Look I think you’ve got to get a right balance. Look I’m not anti-big supermarkets. Tesco have actually done some very good things in my constituency, for example contributing to the build of a new leisure complex, but on the other hand I think there is a worry that we rightly have about saturation.  I did an interview earlier this week actually where I said in some senses we are a bit confused about this as a nation and I suppose I can speak for myself.  On the one hand I will go and shop at the Co-Op or Tesco but equally I do shop at my small, local independent shops as well and I worry about what the saturation means for them.  Of course the small businesses on our high streets add to the unique character of our neighbourhoods and that’s why, this week, there is Independence Day which is happening on Thursday which happens to be the same day as …  

DM:  American day.  

CU:  And it’s a day that was set up by the National Academy for Skills for Retail to promote and persuade people to go and buy in their local independent shops.  This is a pre-cursor to a bigger day which will be happening on Saturday 7^th December.  Massive coalition of business organisations and different groups, instituting the first UK small business Saturday and the aim of that is to celebrate small businesses and encourage people to go and shop in their local independent shops then.  Because you know our problem is I think Dermot, in a sense we don’t have a British dream in which our entrepreneurs and our small business feature in the way that they have an American dream in the United States and it would be good if we can actually recognise what they do because they contribute two thirds of private sector jobs.  

DM:  You’ve got an awful lot of parallels there, I want to ask you that, we’ve just been seeing President Obama in this historic trip to South Africa, it’s said that you’re spending a lot of time on the so-called rubber chicken circuit; talking to a lot of the constituencies, building your base and your support within the Labour Party.  Now I remember 2006-2007 in the United States, when people mentioned Barack Obama, people laughed; they said he is never going to make it.  We all know what happened in 2008.  Do you see yourself becoming the first British black Prime Minister?  

CU:   No, look, I make absolutely no excuse and I have no compunction about getting out of Westminster.  I think we have to get out of here more, and go to speak to businesses to actually learn what it is they need in terms of policies.  But ultimately, I’m not going to be in a position to do anything for British businesses in the way I would like unless we get a Labour government elected and so I do go and do fundraisers for my colleagues, particularly in marginal seats, but also those target seats that we need to win if we’re to get a majority and then actually be able implement policies.  

DM:  The question isn’t about that.  The question is about well you know politics better than I do of course, it’s the way the cards fall, the leaders of the main parties don’t stay the leaders forever; opportunities arise.  If that opportunity arose, would you like to be leader of the Labour party and leader of the Labour government and hence Prime Minister?  

CU:  I’ve been a Member of Parliament for three years.  I find all this chit chat rather absurd and at the end of the day I think you’ve got to keep yourself grounded; you have to remember why you go into politics and that is actually to change things, to change people’s lives and it’s not about the soap opera, who’s up, who’s down, who’s this or that.  It’s actually what is the change you want to deliver and that’s what I’m focused on, I don’t really get carried away…  

DM:  Let me ask you a practical question, coming up on Friday we’ve got this Sir James Wharton Bill, Private Members Bill, sponsored or supported by Mr Cameron about an EU referendum.  What’s Labour going to do?  Is Labour going to abstain or support it?  

CU:  Look, we’re not getting involved in what is basically an internal debate to the Conservative Party, we won’t be there.  I’ll be in my constituency on a day I know many other Labour MPs will as well.  There is some very interesting….  

DM:  So you’re against a referendum are you?  

CU:  We’ve been clear, we need to reform the European Union and if there is a proposal to see a further shift of power towards Europe of course there should be a referendum but the simple fact is if you look at the latest survey of what are the most important issues that people identify for the UK today, just 2% of people say it’s Europe and what we are seeing here is actually a repeat….  

DM: Not 2% of MPs though. Do you think it should be in the Labour manifesto?  

CU: This is a repeat of the early 90s where you…  

DM: Where you had a commitment to a referendum in the Labour manifesto.  

CU:  What having an in-out referendum about a negotiation that hasn’t started, the timeframe which we don’t know and the outcome which is completely uncertain.  Do I think it’s in the interests of people there who want to ensure that they can retain their jobs particularly when they’re working for companies that export to Europe?  Do I think we should create huge uncertainty for them putting their jobs…  

DM:  So you don’t want it in a manifesto?  

CU:  I do not believe it’s the right thing and we are not committed to an in-out referendum but if there’s a proposal to transfer powers to Europe we’ve said yes.  

DM:  But not in the manifesto with that.  Okay, Mr Umunna thank you very much indeed, very good to see you, the Shadow Business Secretary. You are watching Murnaghan here on Sky News.  

ENDS